4 ms·

A Fossil Fuel Economy Requires 535x More Mining Than a Clean Energy Economy

24 points by epistasis 3y ago

ijhuygft776 3y ago
I doubt it.... lithium is nasty business, also.
- epistasis 3y ago
  How much nastier than coal, or iron, or copper? I would say those are nasty. Nobody can ever tell me how lithium is supposed to be nasty, other than the media runs lots of articles on it without any comparison to other mining. This is a very earnest question, I'd love to find an answer to this, but have not found out yet, despite hours of research! (As far as your doubt, which numbers are you doubting?)
  - ijhuygft776 3y ago
    > (As far as your doubt, which numbers are you doubting?) 535x
  - ethagnawl 3y ago
    The "nastiness" also usually lumps in phony, pearl clutching concerns about human rights abuses, as if those issues aren't inherently capitalistic and present in the existing fossil fuel extraction, processing and use life cycle. One example is the "epic" Joe Rogan clip that was making the rounds late last year. I'm sure lithium production is "nasty" but it can almost certainly be done more responsibly (especially on the labor front) and it can also be recycled once it has been extracted. This narrative reeks of big oil propaganda.
    - ijhuygft776 3y ago
      > The "nastiness" also usually lumps in phony, pearl clutching concerns about human rights abuses, as if those issues aren't inherently capitalistic and present in the existing fossil fuel extraction, processing and use life cycle. One example is the "epic" Joe Rogan clip that was making the rounds late last year. I dont care about human right abuses in this case as it was not the subject. If anything, killing humans would probably be a benefit from an environmental standpoint (at least on Earth)...
- zeristor 3y ago
  I'm all ears, what is nasty about Lithium. With the Salton sea works planned to start within a few yeas, it would appear that Lithium can be extracted from geothermal power station water. Let alone the gradual growth of Sodium batteries.
  - ijhuygft776 3y ago
    > I'm all ears, what is nasty about Lithium. production process
    - epistasis 3y ago
      Say more. I've looked up the production process, not sure why I should be more upset than the far great amount of iron that gets used everyday.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- foxyv 3y ago
  It's a matter of scale. A Tesla has about 8kg of lithium. My Honda Fit has burned about 5000 gallons of gasoline over 150k miles. That means, in order to run my little passenger car they needed to mine/pump/drill about 33 thousand kilos of crude oil.
  - ijhuygft776 3y ago
    Have you also looked at the production process of lithium? Quantity used of the final product isn't everything. Actual disposal method of used batteries also could be considered... I might forget other factors
    - Tagbert 3y ago
      EV batteries are not being disposed in a landfill. The relatively few that have failed are mostly stored right now as the processes to recycle their materials are brought into production. The volumes are too low right now for a full industrial build out but pilot plants exist and can be built into full industrial recycling facilities as the need grows. https://electrek.co/2022/10/14/us-increases-ev-battery-recycling-capacity-with-new-al-facility/ https://electrek.co/2022/10/14/us-increases-ev-battery-recyc... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35513612 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35513612 https://blog.ucsusa.org/jessica-dunn/are-ev-batteries-recyclable/ https://blog.ucsusa.org/jessica-dunn/are-ev-batteries-recycl...
    - foxyv 3y ago
      I don't expect there will be much of a disposal issue with lithium batteries. We already recycle the daylights out of them. I expect they will have a similar pattern to lead acid batteries. https://www.epa.gov/hw/lithium-ion-battery-recycling#:~:text=Although%20innovations%20are%20happening%20quickly,based%20leaching%20process%20(hydrometallurgy) https://www.epa.gov/hw/lithium-ion-battery-recycling#:~:text....
  - legitster 3y ago
    That's not quite equivalent though. It takes about 400kg of ore to create 1 kg of lithium. You're also not factoring in the resources to create/transmit the electricity for the Tesla which would be factored into the gas for the Fit.
legitster 3y ago
Bad data. The 28 million tons cited for clean energy is for processed minerals. But just a pound of cobalt could require literally mining tons of ore. The numbers are off by an order of magnitude.
- legitster 3y ago
  Furthermore, having now looked at the underlying report, I am even more skeptical. https://www.iea.org/reports/the-role-of-critical-minerals-in-clean-energy-transitions/mineral-requirements-for-clean-energy-transitions https://www.iea.org/reports/the-role-of-critical-minerals-in... Some of these 2040 scenarios are insanely optimistic - like global nickel and cobalt production more than doubling in a 10 year period! And nearly all of it reliant on China.
- epistasis 3y ago
  Bad example. Most cobalt is a byproduct of mining for nickel or copper, which are the primary metals. Any cobalt sales have been bonuses. What numbers do you estimate? I can't find a source that says that it takes a thousand pounds of mining to produce, say, a pound of iron. But nobody ever complains about steel needing to have mined minerals, and the amount of steel in an EV is several order of magnitude larger than the metals in the batteries.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Pounds? What is this, Ye Olde Englande? just a year ago Fortescue removed 106.7 million tonnes of over burden while delivering 43.8 million tonnes of iron ore ... -- from: https://www.afr.com/companies/mining/fortescue-metals-group-sustains-output-growth-and-its-rage-20150723-giis63 https://www.afr.com/companies/mining/fortescue-metals-group-... Although iron ore is a poor example as current mining sites (W.Australia, elsewhere) are extracting from high density high grade sites so there is relatively little waste. The great issue with EV type tech is the amount of post processing of mined concentrates to extract usable materials - eg: you might want to look at the low level radioactive wastes and required long term storage that's a byproduct of lithium at Lynas sites in Malaysia. If you're (seriously) after current global mining data, try: https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/campaigns/metals-mining https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/campaigns/met... ( warning: everything is stored as metric, although there is likely the ability to convert to hogsheads and chains for the three or so non metric countries )
natmaka 3y ago
Recycling can reduce the pressure, counterbalancing diminishing density and ore grade. No fossil fuel can be recycled. When efficiency (gain/impacts, net energy gain...) declines being able to use a then-better substitute is key. This becomes more and more true for renewables, not for fossil fuels.
Nonosfe 3y ago
Clean energy doesn't exists, you always transform something to extract 'energy' to inject it into a consumer device. You can recycle, optimise but as we have an history of much 'cleaner' economy with renewable energy consumption i can say, as a concervatory aproach. If you are 500 time less demanding on resources, you will also be 500 times less productive.

24 points by epistasis 3y ago

ijhuygft776 3y ago

I doubt it.... lithium is nasty business, also.

epistasis 3y ago
How much nastier than coal, or iron, or copper? I would say those are nasty. Nobody can ever tell me how lithium is supposed to be nasty, other than the media runs lots of articles on it without any comparison to other mining. This is a very earnest question, I'd love to find an answer to this, but have not found out yet, despite hours of research! (As far as your doubt, which numbers are you doubting?)
- ijhuygft776 3y ago
  > (As far as your doubt, which numbers are you doubting?) 535x
- ethagnawl 3y ago
  The "nastiness" also usually lumps in phony, pearl clutching concerns about human rights abuses, as if those issues aren't inherently capitalistic and present in the existing fossil fuel extraction, processing and use life cycle. One example is the "epic" Joe Rogan clip that was making the rounds late last year. I'm sure lithium production is "nasty" but it can almost certainly be done more responsibly (especially on the labor front) and it can also be recycled once it has been extracted. This narrative reeks of big oil propaganda.
  - ijhuygft776 3y ago
    > The "nastiness" also usually lumps in phony, pearl clutching concerns about human rights abuses, as if those issues aren't inherently capitalistic and present in the existing fossil fuel extraction, processing and use life cycle. One example is the "epic" Joe Rogan clip that was making the rounds late last year. I dont care about human right abuses in this case as it was not the subject. If anything, killing humans would probably be a benefit from an environmental standpoint (at least on Earth)...
zeristor 3y ago
I'm all ears, what is nasty about Lithium. With the Salton sea works planned to start within a few yeas, it would appear that Lithium can be extracted from geothermal power station water. Let alone the gradual growth of Sodium batteries.
- ijhuygft776 3y ago
  > I'm all ears, what is nasty about Lithium. production process
  - epistasis 3y ago
    Say more. I've looked up the production process, not sure why I should be more upset than the far great amount of iron that gets used everyday.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
foxyv 3y ago
It's a matter of scale. A Tesla has about 8kg of lithium. My Honda Fit has burned about 5000 gallons of gasoline over 150k miles. That means, in order to run my little passenger car they needed to mine/pump/drill about 33 thousand kilos of crude oil.
- ijhuygft776 3y ago
  Have you also looked at the production process of lithium? Quantity used of the final product isn't everything. Actual disposal method of used batteries also could be considered... I might forget other factors
  - Tagbert 3y ago
    EV batteries are not being disposed in a landfill. The relatively few that have failed are mostly stored right now as the processes to recycle their materials are brought into production. The volumes are too low right now for a full industrial build out but pilot plants exist and can be built into full industrial recycling facilities as the need grows. https://electrek.co/2022/10/14/us-increases-ev-battery-recycling-capacity-with-new-al-facility/ https://electrek.co/2022/10/14/us-increases-ev-battery-recyc... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35513612 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35513612 https://blog.ucsusa.org/jessica-dunn/are-ev-batteries-recyclable/ https://blog.ucsusa.org/jessica-dunn/are-ev-batteries-recycl...
  - foxyv 3y ago
    I don't expect there will be much of a disposal issue with lithium batteries. We already recycle the daylights out of them. I expect they will have a similar pattern to lead acid batteries. https://www.epa.gov/hw/lithium-ion-battery-recycling#:~:text=Although%20innovations%20are%20happening%20quickly,based%20leaching%20process%20(hydrometallurgy) https://www.epa.gov/hw/lithium-ion-battery-recycling#:~:text....
- legitster 3y ago
  That's not quite equivalent though. It takes about 400kg of ore to create 1 kg of lithium. You're also not factoring in the resources to create/transmit the electricity for the Tesla which would be factored into the gas for the Fit.

legitster 3y ago

Bad data. The 28 million tons cited for clean energy is for processed minerals. But just a pound of cobalt could require literally mining tons of ore. The numbers are off by an order of magnitude.

legitster 3y ago
Furthermore, having now looked at the underlying report, I am even more skeptical. https://www.iea.org/reports/the-role-of-critical-minerals-in-clean-energy-transitions/mineral-requirements-for-clean-energy-transitions https://www.iea.org/reports/the-role-of-critical-minerals-in... Some of these 2040 scenarios are insanely optimistic - like global nickel and cobalt production more than doubling in a 10 year period! And nearly all of it reliant on China.
epistasis 3y ago
Bad example. Most cobalt is a byproduct of mining for nickel or copper, which are the primary metals. Any cobalt sales have been bonuses. What numbers do you estimate? I can't find a source that says that it takes a thousand pounds of mining to produce, say, a pound of iron. But nobody ever complains about steel needing to have mined minerals, and the amount of steel in an EV is several order of magnitude larger than the metals in the batteries.
- defrost 3y ago
  Pounds? What is this, Ye Olde Englande? just a year ago Fortescue removed 106.7 million tonnes of over burden while delivering 43.8 million tonnes of iron ore ... -- from: https://www.afr.com/companies/mining/fortescue-metals-group-sustains-output-growth-and-its-rage-20150723-giis63 https://www.afr.com/companies/mining/fortescue-metals-group-... Although iron ore is a poor example as current mining sites (W.Australia, elsewhere) are extracting from high density high grade sites so there is relatively little waste. The great issue with EV type tech is the amount of post processing of mined concentrates to extract usable materials - eg: you might want to look at the low level radioactive wastes and required long term storage that's a byproduct of lithium at Lynas sites in Malaysia. If you're (seriously) after current global mining data, try: https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/campaigns/metals-mining https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/campaigns/met... ( warning: everything is stored as metric, although there is likely the ability to convert to hogsheads and chains for the three or so non metric countries )

natmaka 3y ago

Recycling can reduce the pressure, counterbalancing diminishing density and ore grade. No fossil fuel can be recycled. When efficiency (gain/impacts, net energy gain...) declines being able to use a then-better substitute is key. This becomes more and more true for renewables, not for fossil fuels.

Nonosfe 3y ago

Clean energy doesn't exists, you always transform something to extract 'energy' to inject it into a consumer device. You can recycle, optimise but as we have an history of much 'cleaner' economy with renewable energy consumption i can say, as a concervatory aproach. If you are 500 time less demanding on resources, you will also be 500 times less productive.