4 ms·

FCC fines for jamming the spectrum are...nontrivial

by RobRivera 3y ago

beardyw 3y ago
I think it can be done by sending de-authenticates. No signal jamming required.
- lazide 3y ago
  FCC rules forbid hostile use of the frequencies, that’s also what forbids jamming. Everyone is supposed to get along and play nicely, and jamming is the definition of not doing that. Intentionally sending disconnects/de-authentications too, if the intent is denying lawful use for someone.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ttyprintk 3y ago
  The FCC uses the word “blocking” and institutes the same fine.
AnarchismIsCool 3y ago
I can assure you they don't give a shit. The FCC has been completely asleep at the wheel for a decade. Yeah if you rig up a 1kw tube amp and start splattering a big chunk of the FM boardcast band, jam their cash cow mobile networks or run around with a GPS jammer near an airport you'll get a near immediate PP slap but beyond that they'll maybe send a car eventually. They don't have the ability to detect and locate this stuff in real time and, IMO, probably shouldn't for privacy reasons.
- pierat 3y ago
  For ISM, yeah the FCC don't give a shit. Marriott was jamming for years, until they were forced to stop. Keyword: years. If someone is making temporary jamming attacks (even on GPS or cell), unless you do it at your house or stationary, you ain't getting caught. I know 'a friend at the hackerspace' who did a .25w GPS spoof to make the city look like it was in Moscow, Russia. Nobody responded.
  - syntheticcorp 3y ago
    Specifically, Marriott was deauthing rather than just plain jamming.
    - pierat 3y ago
      Deauthing is an application-soecific jamming. There's lots of types of jamming, not just white noise static.
- dylan604 3y ago
  I can assure you they will give a shit if you make enough, ahem, noise that people start complaining. Not that it's not fun to mess around though. Think about those little stickers that says your device must accept all blah blah. You just have to be able to talk to them so they can.
- spr-alex 3y ago
  Rest assured they do. If you look up FCC violations in urban areas you can find out that they are quite adept at triangulating violators. "A first offense is a misdemeanor punishable by up to a $10,000 fine and/or up to a year in jail. Subsequent offenses are felonies punishable by up to 2 years in prison. In practice, this might result in only a civil action by the FCC. But it is forbidden by Congress and can be punished by imprisonment." https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/94617/is-deliberate-radio-interference-a-crime#:~:text=A%20first%20offense%20is%20a,can%20be%20punished%20by%20imprisonment https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/94617/is-deliberate-....
  - AnarchismIsCool 3y ago
    Not sure why everyone is linking me articles on the CFRs, long abandoned listening posts too far from anything to matter at all, and the few one off cases where someone did something dumb enough, long enough, that it got the FCCs attention, which is newsworthy because they usually don't pay any attention. You can fuck with RF as much as you want, as long as you A: don't do it constantly, B: don't do it in the same location every time (at home), and C: don't do it in a band belonging to someone who has their FCC field office's number on a post-it note and has paid the FCC lots of money.
    - kalleboo 3y ago
      Yeah I always recall this article http://www.arrl.org/news/view/amateur-radio-sleuthing-pins-down-source-of-strange-rf-interference http://www.arrl.org/news/view/amateur-radio-sleuthing-pins-d... The FCC told the police they didn't care, it took a bunch of HAMs running around to find the source and politely ask them to maybe fix it or at least consider turning it off if someone else complains again.
thegrim33 3y ago
Criminals committing felonies usually don't really worry about FCC fines.
tareqak 3y ago
The amount of Uber and Lyft drivers that have told me how cellular reception near sports stadiums are atrocious tells me that these FCC fines are not deterring those with sufficiently deep pockets.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  Different root cause - stadiums concentrate an absurd amount of people in a very small space, and people aren't going to a stadium to watch sports, they are there to make selfies, videos, even livestreams for Instagram, Snapchat or Tiktok so they need a lot of bandwidth. Ideally, the operators of such venues would go and place an appropriate amount of picocells inside the stadium, but these cost a ton of money to install and they are only used maybe once a week for two hours, so there is no financial incentive for the providers (particularly if the general public has gotten so accustomed with a baseline of enshittification that they don't even protest any more). For example, take the Munich Oktoberfest. The Theresienwiese is 42ha large and fits about 600.000 people without tents or ~200.000 in the full Oktoberfest buildout - and each year, every provider literally spins up hundreds of cells of all sizes, to accomodate the up to 20, 30 terabytes of data each day that all these people create [1]. But since that is two weeks of full load, it's worth the effort in the end financially. [1] https://www.golem.de/news/netzabdeckung-mobilfunk-beim-oktoberfest-wie-eine-mittelgrosse-stadt-2209-168203.html https://www.golem.de/news/netzabdeckung-mobilfunk-beim-oktob...
  - bluGill 3y ago
    AT&T has microcells in a box that you can get them to install for you large events and then return at the end of the event. You can even set who is allowed to connect so you can demonstrate your cell device works at a trade show while not having to deal with other cell phones. I don't know why they don't bring them to sporting events and then take them out at the end. Probably labor.
    - kjs3 3y ago
      When I worked for Cingular Wireless pre-AT&T, we had everything from femtocells (the last 2 stalls in the bathroom don't have service) to full cell sites with their own power source on 18 wheelers they'd roll up for big events, and a dedicated team of engineers and techs to support it. It was a huge help, but at the end of the day bandwidth is still finite no matter how many cells you stick in and around the stadium.
sneak 3y ago
If you’re caught jamming spectrum to disable security cameras to invade someone’s home and steal property, you’re going to get more than fines. Kicking in doors is also illegal.

FCC fines for jamming the spectrum are...nontrivial

beardyw 3y ago

I think it can be done by sending de-authenticates. No signal jamming required.

lazide 3y ago
FCC rules forbid hostile use of the frequencies, that’s also what forbids jamming. Everyone is supposed to get along and play nicely, and jamming is the definition of not doing that. Intentionally sending disconnects/de-authentications too, if the intent is denying lawful use for someone.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ttyprintk 3y ago
The FCC uses the word “blocking” and institutes the same fine.

AnarchismIsCool 3y ago

I can assure you they don't give a shit. The FCC has been completely asleep at the wheel for a decade. Yeah if you rig up a 1kw tube amp and start splattering a big chunk of the FM boardcast band, jam their cash cow mobile networks or run around with a GPS jammer near an airport you'll get a near immediate PP slap but beyond that they'll maybe send a car eventually. They don't have the ability to detect and locate this stuff in real time and, IMO, probably shouldn't for privacy reasons.

pierat 3y ago
For ISM, yeah the FCC don't give a shit. Marriott was jamming for years, until they were forced to stop. Keyword: years. If someone is making temporary jamming attacks (even on GPS or cell), unless you do it at your house or stationary, you ain't getting caught. I know 'a friend at the hackerspace' who did a .25w GPS spoof to make the city look like it was in Moscow, Russia. Nobody responded.
- syntheticcorp 3y ago
  Specifically, Marriott was deauthing rather than just plain jamming.
  - pierat 3y ago
    Deauthing is an application-soecific jamming. There's lots of types of jamming, not just white noise static.
dylan604 3y ago
I can assure you they will give a shit if you make enough, ahem, noise that people start complaining. Not that it's not fun to mess around though. Think about those little stickers that says your device must accept all blah blah. You just have to be able to talk to them so they can.
spr-alex 3y ago
Rest assured they do. If you look up FCC violations in urban areas you can find out that they are quite adept at triangulating violators. "A first offense is a misdemeanor punishable by up to a $10,000 fine and/or up to a year in jail. Subsequent offenses are felonies punishable by up to 2 years in prison. In practice, this might result in only a civil action by the FCC. But it is forbidden by Congress and can be punished by imprisonment." https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/94617/is-deliberate-radio-interference-a-crime#:~:text=A%20first%20offense%20is%20a,can%20be%20punished%20by%20imprisonment https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/94617/is-deliberate-....
- AnarchismIsCool 3y ago
  Not sure why everyone is linking me articles on the CFRs, long abandoned listening posts too far from anything to matter at all, and the few one off cases where someone did something dumb enough, long enough, that it got the FCCs attention, which is newsworthy because they usually don't pay any attention. You can fuck with RF as much as you want, as long as you A: don't do it constantly, B: don't do it in the same location every time (at home), and C: don't do it in a band belonging to someone who has their FCC field office's number on a post-it note and has paid the FCC lots of money.
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    Yeah I always recall this article http://www.arrl.org/news/view/amateur-radio-sleuthing-pins-down-source-of-strange-rf-interference http://www.arrl.org/news/view/amateur-radio-sleuthing-pins-d... The FCC told the police they didn't care, it took a bunch of HAMs running around to find the source and politely ask them to maybe fix it or at least consider turning it off if someone else complains again.

thegrim33 3y ago

Criminals committing felonies usually don't really worry about FCC fines.

tareqak 3y ago

The amount of Uber and Lyft drivers that have told me how cellular reception near sports stadiums are atrocious tells me that these FCC fines are not deterring those with sufficiently deep pockets.

mschuster91 3y ago
Different root cause - stadiums concentrate an absurd amount of people in a very small space, and people aren't going to a stadium to watch sports, they are there to make selfies, videos, even livestreams for Instagram, Snapchat or Tiktok so they need a lot of bandwidth. Ideally, the operators of such venues would go and place an appropriate amount of picocells inside the stadium, but these cost a ton of money to install and they are only used maybe once a week for two hours, so there is no financial incentive for the providers (particularly if the general public has gotten so accustomed with a baseline of enshittification that they don't even protest any more). For example, take the Munich Oktoberfest. The Theresienwiese is 42ha large and fits about 600.000 people without tents or ~200.000 in the full Oktoberfest buildout - and each year, every provider literally spins up hundreds of cells of all sizes, to accomodate the up to 20, 30 terabytes of data each day that all these people create [1]. But since that is two weeks of full load, it's worth the effort in the end financially. [1] https://www.golem.de/news/netzabdeckung-mobilfunk-beim-oktoberfest-wie-eine-mittelgrosse-stadt-2209-168203.html https://www.golem.de/news/netzabdeckung-mobilfunk-beim-oktob...
- bluGill 3y ago
  AT&T has microcells in a box that you can get them to install for you large events and then return at the end of the event. You can even set who is allowed to connect so you can demonstrate your cell device works at a trade show while not having to deal with other cell phones. I don't know why they don't bring them to sporting events and then take them out at the end. Probably labor.
  - kjs3 3y ago
    When I worked for Cingular Wireless pre-AT&T, we had everything from femtocells (the last 2 stalls in the bathroom don't have service) to full cell sites with their own power source on 18 wheelers they'd roll up for big events, and a dedicated team of engineers and techs to support it. It was a huge help, but at the end of the day bandwidth is still finite no matter how many cells you stick in and around the stadium.

sneak 3y ago

If you’re caught jamming spectrum to disable security cameras to invade someone’s home and steal property, you’re going to get more than fines. Kicking in doors is also illegal.