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The article totally ignores the fact that there have been 900 crashes reported since 2021, which is a ridiculously low number of crashes. This is basically a T

by mannyv 3y ago

The article totally ignores the fact that there have been 900 crashes reported since 2021, which is a ridiculously low number of crashes. This is basically a Tesla hit piece. Teslas are safer than human drivers by far, even when the systems are abused by their drivers. Using 2020 stats (Forbes) there were an estimated 5,250,837 car crashes in 2020. Of those, < 1% have fatalities (35,766 accidents with fatalities). https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/car-accident-statistics/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/car-accident-statistics...

93po 3y ago
There's ridiculous bias in the writing and presentation along with rage-bait, of course it's a hit piece. Corporate journalism is a joke.
1970-01-01 3y ago
Correct take. Go and look up their fire statistics, and you'll get a similar conclusion. Its getting much better YoY. https://insideevs.com/news/501729/number-tesla-vehicle-fires-2020/ https://insideevs.com/news/501729/number-tesla-vehicle-fires... https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-deaths?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-deaths?op=1
- Veserv 3y ago
  Okay, now do the statistics for the number of people who burned to death. Actually, no need, I have them right here. The NFPA (the same organization Tesla is quoting for vehicle fire counts) estimates 560 fire deaths per year in the US over 290 million registered vehicle years [2] or ~1.93 deaths per million vehicle-years. Third party reports show at least 20 people burned to death in their Tesla's in the US in 2022 [1]. There were ~3.65 million Tesla's worldwide in 2022. If we divide US deaths by worldwide Teslas you get ~5.47 people burning to death per million vehicle-years or ~2.8x deadlier if every worldwide Tesla was in the US. By 2022 the US probably accounted for ~50% of vehicles, so you are probably ~5x more likely to burn to death in a Tesla than the average car (which by the way is ~10 years old, half the price, with fewer safety features). That is not 500% more likely to burn to death given that you get into a fire, that is 500% more likely to burn to death total. If you get into a fire in a Tesla then you are ~5,000% more likely to die in it. Quite odd how Tesla read the same reports yet only published analysis on the non-safety critical cases that make themselves look good instead of the safety critical cases that make them look dramatically more dangerous than the Pinto. Must be because their data analysis team consists of people with the analytical capability of grade schoolers since any competent individual could easily do this analysis. I mean, the only other possibility is that the analysts and their management are deliberately perpetrating criminal fraud by sacrificing human lives to line their own pockets. One or the other, pick one. [1] https://www.tesla-fire.com/ https://www.tesla-fire.com/ [2] https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-research/research/nfpa-research/fire-statistical-reports/vehicle-fires?l=343 https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-research/research/nfpa-re...
  - 1970-01-01 3y ago
    >Third party reports show at least 20 people burned to death in their Tesla's in the US in 2022 [1] I started fact checking [1], and stopped when there was only 1 death in 2022: a cat. Many of "your" fires are indirectly related to Tesla (e.x. bad EVSE wiring job), so please link me to anything I may have missed and I'll continue.
    - Veserv 3y ago
      I have no idea what you are even talking about. The page has clear links to news stories corroborating the deaths. Here are a few in 2022 with minimal paywalls: [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20221111234459/https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/1-dead-2-injured-after-car-bursts-into-flames-during-multi-car-crash-in-garden-grove/ https://web.archive.org/web/20221111234459/https://www.cbsne... “A Tesla is believed to have burst into flames upon impact. One person, a passenger inside the Tesla, was pronounced dead at the scene by first responders.” [2] https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/atlanta-crash-ralph-d-abernathy/85-c224cf65-b2ef-47b7-8bad-facb0fa5a329 https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/atlanta-crash-ral... “ One person is dead after a fiery crash on Tuesday morning in southwest Atlanta where Atlanta Police officers were unable to rescue the driver from a burning Tesla.” [3] https://www.denver7.com/news/investigations/fatal-tesla-crash-in-evergreen-now-part-of-federal-investigation https://www.denver7.com/news/investigations/fatal-tesla-cras... Look familiar? “The crash happened in the late evening of May 16 on Upper Bear Creek Road when the car went off the road and slammed into a tree. The car then caught fire. A passenger made it out of the vehicle, but the driver, 33-year-old Hans von Ohain, died at the scene.” Yep, literally the very crash this thread is about was a fire death. You clearly either did not even look at the link provided or failed to understand how the data was presented. And just in case you did not read the NFPA report I linked and make a statement like, “But, but, those were crashes, they don’t count.” The NFPA report counts all fires where a death occurred directly or indirectly, especially collisions which were responsible for almost 2/3 of vehicle fire deaths. What the data actually shows is that non-collision fires, which are almost never deadly, are uncommon on Teslas. However, collision fires, which are very deadly, are disproportionately dangerous and common on Teslas to the extent that their total fire death rate is multiple times higher than regular cars. As it turns out, reducing your near miss rate in return for increasing catastrophic failure rate is not acceptable.
rootusrootus 3y ago
> Teslas are safer than human drivers by far Can you back up that claim? What numbers are you using to assert that Teslas are safer, and why do you believe the comparison valid?
Veserv 3y ago
I do not understand what you are even trying to imply. Why even bring up that <1% of crashes have fatalities? Are you trying to claim that these Tesla systems were only responsible for ~9 fatalities? You are aware that the very same dataset you are referencing has at least 23 confirmed fatalities. Are you trying to claim that there were actually 2300 crashes and Tesla only reported 900 of them? Or are you trying to say that Tesla crashes are 2.5x more deadly on average? Are you trying to highlight how Tesla chooses not to investigate ~95% of crashes to avoid confirming if a fatality or serious injury occurred so the report numbers have insufficient data to draw any positive conclusions? Or are you trying to highlight how Tesla telemetry has missed ~60% of confirmed fatalities so is completely untrustworthy to estimate ground truth crash or fatality rates? Or are you trying to highlight how this is not the first FSD incident since Tesla confirms there were already ~30 as of 1 year ago at the beginning of 2023, they just force NHTSA to redact which ones claiming that it is confidential information that might hurt their business?

by mannyv 3y ago

93po 3y ago

There's ridiculous bias in the writing and presentation along with rage-bait, of course it's a hit piece. Corporate journalism is a joke.

1970-01-01 3y ago

Correct take. Go and look up their fire statistics, and you'll get a similar conclusion. Its getting much better YoY. https://insideevs.com/news/501729/number-tesla-vehicle-fires-2020/ https://insideevs.com/news/501729/number-tesla-vehicle-fires... https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-deaths?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-deaths?op=1

Veserv 3y ago
Okay, now do the statistics for the number of people who burned to death. Actually, no need, I have them right here. The NFPA (the same organization Tesla is quoting for vehicle fire counts) estimates 560 fire deaths per year in the US over 290 million registered vehicle years [2] or ~1.93 deaths per million vehicle-years. Third party reports show at least 20 people burned to death in their Tesla's in the US in 2022 [1]. There were ~3.65 million Tesla's worldwide in 2022. If we divide US deaths by worldwide Teslas you get ~5.47 people burning to death per million vehicle-years or ~2.8x deadlier if every worldwide Tesla was in the US. By 2022 the US probably accounted for ~50% of vehicles, so you are probably ~5x more likely to burn to death in a Tesla than the average car (which by the way is ~10 years old, half the price, with fewer safety features). That is not 500% more likely to burn to death given that you get into a fire, that is 500% more likely to burn to death total. If you get into a fire in a Tesla then you are ~5,000% more likely to die in it. Quite odd how Tesla read the same reports yet only published analysis on the non-safety critical cases that make themselves look good instead of the safety critical cases that make them look dramatically more dangerous than the Pinto. Must be because their data analysis team consists of people with the analytical capability of grade schoolers since any competent individual could easily do this analysis. I mean, the only other possibility is that the analysts and their management are deliberately perpetrating criminal fraud by sacrificing human lives to line their own pockets. One or the other, pick one. [1] https://www.tesla-fire.com/ https://www.tesla-fire.com/ [2] https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-research/research/nfpa-research/fire-statistical-reports/vehicle-fires?l=343 https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-research/research/nfpa-re...
- 1970-01-01 3y ago
  >Third party reports show at least 20 people burned to death in their Tesla's in the US in 2022 [1] I started fact checking [1], and stopped when there was only 1 death in 2022: a cat. Many of "your" fires are indirectly related to Tesla (e.x. bad EVSE wiring job), so please link me to anything I may have missed and I'll continue.
  - Veserv 3y ago
    I have no idea what you are even talking about. The page has clear links to news stories corroborating the deaths. Here are a few in 2022 with minimal paywalls: [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20221111234459/https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/1-dead-2-injured-after-car-bursts-into-flames-during-multi-car-crash-in-garden-grove/ https://web.archive.org/web/20221111234459/https://www.cbsne... “A Tesla is believed to have burst into flames upon impact. One person, a passenger inside the Tesla, was pronounced dead at the scene by first responders.” [2] https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/atlanta-crash-ralph-d-abernathy/85-c224cf65-b2ef-47b7-8bad-facb0fa5a329 https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/atlanta-crash-ral... “ One person is dead after a fiery crash on Tuesday morning in southwest Atlanta where Atlanta Police officers were unable to rescue the driver from a burning Tesla.” [3] https://www.denver7.com/news/investigations/fatal-tesla-crash-in-evergreen-now-part-of-federal-investigation https://www.denver7.com/news/investigations/fatal-tesla-cras... Look familiar? “The crash happened in the late evening of May 16 on Upper Bear Creek Road when the car went off the road and slammed into a tree. The car then caught fire. A passenger made it out of the vehicle, but the driver, 33-year-old Hans von Ohain, died at the scene.” Yep, literally the very crash this thread is about was a fire death. You clearly either did not even look at the link provided or failed to understand how the data was presented. And just in case you did not read the NFPA report I linked and make a statement like, “But, but, those were crashes, they don’t count.” The NFPA report counts all fires where a death occurred directly or indirectly, especially collisions which were responsible for almost 2/3 of vehicle fire deaths. What the data actually shows is that non-collision fires, which are almost never deadly, are uncommon on Teslas. However, collision fires, which are very deadly, are disproportionately dangerous and common on Teslas to the extent that their total fire death rate is multiple times higher than regular cars. As it turns out, reducing your near miss rate in return for increasing catastrophic failure rate is not acceptable.

rootusrootus 3y ago

> Teslas are safer than human drivers by far Can you back up that claim? What numbers are you using to assert that Teslas are safer, and why do you believe the comparison valid?

Veserv 3y ago

I do not understand what you are even trying to imply. Why even bring up that <1% of crashes have fatalities? Are you trying to claim that these Tesla systems were only responsible for ~9 fatalities? You are aware that the very same dataset you are referencing has at least 23 confirmed fatalities. Are you trying to claim that there were actually 2300 crashes and Tesla only reported 900 of them? Or are you trying to say that Tesla crashes are 2.5x more deadly on average? Are you trying to highlight how Tesla chooses not to investigate ~95% of crashes to avoid confirming if a fatality or serious injury occurred so the report numbers have insufficient data to draw any positive conclusions? Or are you trying to highlight how Tesla telemetry has missed ~60% of confirmed fatalities so is completely untrustworthy to estimate ground truth crash or fatality rates? Or are you trying to highlight how this is not the first FSD incident since Tesla confirms there were already ~30 as of 1 year ago at the beginning of 2023, they just force NHTSA to redact which ones claiming that it is confidential information that might hurt their business?