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I can't recall a single instance of language being an actual issue when solving a business problem, and I've been programming for over 30 years. Discussions abo

I can't recall a single instance of language being an actual issue when solving a business problem, and I've been programming for over 30 years. Discussions about language can be tiresome, but languages themselves havent been a problem. The only real problem I know of with languages is that they don't die off fast enough. If the perfect language arrived tomorrow, it would be lost in the sea of languages anyway. A language debate is a sign the there is an extra language lurking and it should die off. Python vs Ruby is a lively debate. I don't care which one survives, but do we really need both? The most curious debate of all is "Haskell?", a debate that seems to exist apart from any other language, the clearest sign of a lurking "extra" language.

dman 15y ago
In this case are you talking about a language as a semantic and conceptual entity or are you including a language as an implementation? Ive had to rewrite code in C/C++ a couple of times because my Python solution wasnt fast enough.
- paulsutter 15y ago
  Perfect example. There were no language problems. You wrote it in Python, then once you knew where to optimize you did so with C/C++. Great use of the available tools. Now to answer your question: I have no idea. Perhaps like you, I consider C and C++ to be pretty much one language because they occupy nearly the same slot in the toolbox. Maybe ones a regular screwdriver and the other is a power screwdriver? I dunno. The most peculiar debates are about the latest versions of C and C++. Really smart guys, how much nicer if they would listen to Peter Thiel and work on real innovation. The economy needs it.
  - andrewflnr 15y ago
    I think you might have too narrow a definition of "problem caused by a language". I love Python as much as the next guy, but if it's not fast enough, forcing him to rewrite part of his code in another language, that's a problem. Wasted effort. It's hypothetically possible for a language to be both expressive and performant. If a language could prevent a problem, but doesn't, doesn't it share responsibility for the problem?
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yukyukyuk 15y ago
If you've been programming for over 30 years, then what did you make of Java? Prior to Java, business software was in a world of hurt. You really don't want code monkey consultant types writing in a language where getting one line wrong can corrupt your process memory. And you have no idea anything is wrong until, half an hour later, your program actually has to read that corrupted memory. And segfaults. This is the C/C++ world. You can program all sorts of algorithmic bugs in Java, but you will not have memory corruption bugs of this sort because it is impossible to express those bugs in the language. Java was not designed to be the standard programming language for business. It was designed to be the programming language for Sun's network OS vision. However, it just happened to fill a gaping void, and it revolutionized the way business software gets built. tl;dr choosing the right language for solving business problems can mean the difference between success and failure.
Tuna-Fish 15y ago
Haskell isn't, and isn't trying to be, the next big language. Haskell is first and foremost a vehicle for programming language research, and it's primary proponents aren't shy about that. As such, it has been extraordinarily successful, and necessary.
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cbsmith 15y ago
Languages that are turing complete can obviously solve any business problem that is solvable. The trick is the ease with which your goals can be accomplished, and there is a tremendous amount of variability there (if there wasn't, we'd all be programming in assembly). I've seen bake-offs where different teams used different languages and the results were dramatic enough that I'd say the loser was clearly a "problem".

dman 15y ago

In this case are you talking about a language as a semantic and conceptual entity or are you including a language as an implementation? Ive had to rewrite code in C/C++ a couple of times because my Python solution wasnt fast enough.

paulsutter 15y ago
Perfect example. There were no language problems. You wrote it in Python, then once you knew where to optimize you did so with C/C++. Great use of the available tools. Now to answer your question: I have no idea. Perhaps like you, I consider C and C++ to be pretty much one language because they occupy nearly the same slot in the toolbox. Maybe ones a regular screwdriver and the other is a power screwdriver? I dunno. The most peculiar debates are about the latest versions of C and C++. Really smart guys, how much nicer if they would listen to Peter Thiel and work on real innovation. The economy needs it.
- andrewflnr 15y ago
  I think you might have too narrow a definition of "problem caused by a language". I love Python as much as the next guy, but if it's not fast enough, forcing him to rewrite part of his code in another language, that's a problem. Wasted effort. It's hypothetically possible for a language to be both expressive and performant. If a language could prevent a problem, but doesn't, doesn't it share responsibility for the problem?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]

yukyukyuk 15y ago

If you've been programming for over 30 years, then what did you make of Java? Prior to Java, business software was in a world of hurt. You really don't want code monkey consultant types writing in a language where getting one line wrong can corrupt your process memory. And you have no idea anything is wrong until, half an hour later, your program actually has to read that corrupted memory. And segfaults. This is the C/C++ world. You can program all sorts of algorithmic bugs in Java, but you will not have memory corruption bugs of this sort because it is impossible to express those bugs in the language. Java was not designed to be the standard programming language for business. It was designed to be the programming language for Sun's network OS vision. However, it just happened to fill a gaping void, and it revolutionized the way business software gets built. tl;dr choosing the right language for solving business problems can mean the difference between success and failure.

Tuna-Fish 15y ago

Haskell isn't, and isn't trying to be, the next big language. Haskell is first and foremost a vehicle for programming language research, and it's primary proponents aren't shy about that. As such, it has been extraordinarily successful, and necessary.

deleted 15y ago
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cbsmith 15y ago

Languages that are turing complete can obviously solve any business problem that is solvable. The trick is the ease with which your goals can be accomplished, and there is a tremendous amount of variability there (if there wasn't, we'd all be programming in assembly). I've seen bake-offs where different teams used different languages and the results were dramatic enough that I'd say the loser was clearly a "problem".