4 ms·

The Disappearance of the French Language

5 points by brandonlc 3y ago

mytailorisrich 3y ago
> Current French slang simply consists in saying things backward with some orthographic changes This is called 'verlan' in French (it's "l'envers", which means 'the reverse'/'in reverse' in reverse...) and it's old, at least 19th century but it really spread in the 20th century and especially since it was embraced by the youths in council estates throughout the country whereas it what more Paris/North before. I would be more offended by the explosion of the use of English words, indeed. I have been living outside of France for 20 years and I am shocked whenever I visit. It is really atrocious and I do agree that it is hard to use for someone who speaks fluent English as a second language because it does not make sense in either language. The level of grammar in general is also collapsing... I suppose that's what happens when schools give up.
palata 3y ago
I find it interesting to spend so many words explaining how "French is disappearing" while at the same time complaining about French people not speaking English. Can French really disappear if people only speak... French? Languages evolve and are influenced by other languages. It has always been the case; should we complain about Greek or Latin roots in French? What would the language be without them? English is a Germanic language, should we complain about the assimilation of German words? And of course English got some words from French as well. I am pretty sure that the author's notion of "beautiful French" is not Old French, though somebody much older could complain about how it evolved. I do agree that it is important to preserve languages, but I really don't feel like French is disappearing. As for the slang, I think that the author has the perspective of an old man indeed (as advertised): it does not "simply consist in saying things backward with some orthographic changes" (which would be what's called "Verlan"). Some words come from other languages (e.g. Arabic), some are just brand new ways of using existing words. Is it not inventive or not a source of merriment or fantasy? I wouldn't know, I'm not using this slang (I'm too old now). But surely it does perform the first function of a slang to some extent, because young people say stuff I just don't understand at all. What I can say is that over the years I "lost" most of my slang and went back to "proper" French (with some definition of "proper", maybe the author believes that the only true French is the one from Paris?). Some words stayed, many did not. Finally, I'd like to note the interesting choice of "delicious French expressions", half of which are actually nice ("Faire l’école buisssonière" and "Prendre le chemin des écoliers"), the other half much less (as they exclusively refer to women's sexuality, the last one "Elle a la cuisse légère" meaning "She's a slut"). It does not make me too sad when an expression disrespectful specifically to women disappears.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  There is little doubt that the level, be it vocabulary or grammar is dropping. This is evolution, but evolution in a specific direction. > It does not make me too sad when an expression disrespectful specifically to women disappears. That's completely beside the point. I think what the author means is that those expressions are disappearing to be replaced by cruder versions (in "mindless slang and Frenglish", not that the language is becoming more PC. And, obviously these are only examples.
  - mamonster 3y ago
    Grammar is basically destroyed already. Like 6-7 years ago I would be impressed upon hearing correct usage of the subjonctif. These days I am impressed by the correct usage of passé simple in plural. In terms of vocabulary, much more annoying than any anglicism are "wallah" and "wesh" in every sentence, especially from middle class zoomers.
    - palata 3y ago
      > These days I am impressed by the correct usage of passé simple in plural. Are you sure you mean "passé simple" here?
  - palata 3y ago
    > There is little doubt that the level, be it vocabulary or grammar is dropping. This is evolution, but evolution in a specific direction. Is it the same thing as saying that the language is disappearing, though? In my life, I have seen the end of my dialect. It has pretty much disappeared. I don't feel like French is remotely in the same situation. > That's completely beside the point. The author says: "Now, I can’t prove a cause and effect relationship between slang and Frenglish on the one hand and the disappearance of such expressions in the French language but the coincidence in time between the two categories of phenomena and this vanishing is troubling, at least". How is it completely beside the point to say that I don't find "Elle a la cuisse légère" to be "exquisite", and that my not using it is not due to "mindless slang and Frenglish" but out of respect for women?

5 points by brandonlc 3y ago

> Current French slang simply consists in saying things backward with some orthographic changes This is called 'verlan' in French (it's "l'envers", which means 'the reverse'/'in reverse' in reverse...) and it's old, at least 19th century but it really spread in the 20th century and especially since it was embraced by the youths in council estates throughout the country whereas it what more Paris/North before. I would be more offended by the explosion of the use of English words, indeed. I have been living outside of France for 20 years and I am shocked whenever I visit. It is really atrocious and I do agree that it is hard to use for someone who speaks fluent English as a second language because it does not make sense in either language. The level of grammar in general is also collapsing... I suppose that's what happens when schools give up.

palata 3y ago

I find it interesting to spend so many words explaining how "French is disappearing" while at the same time complaining about French people not speaking English. Can French really disappear if people only speak... French? Languages evolve and are influenced by other languages. It has always been the case; should we complain about Greek or Latin roots in French? What would the language be without them? English is a Germanic language, should we complain about the assimilation of German words? And of course English got some words from French as well. I am pretty sure that the author's notion of "beautiful French" is not Old French, though somebody much older could complain about how it evolved. I do agree that it is important to preserve languages, but I really don't feel like French is disappearing. As for the slang, I think that the author has the perspective of an old man indeed (as advertised): it does not "simply consist in saying things backward with some orthographic changes" (which would be what's called "Verlan"). Some words come from other languages (e.g. Arabic), some are just brand new ways of using existing words. Is it not inventive or not a source of merriment or fantasy? I wouldn't know, I'm not using this slang (I'm too old now). But surely it does perform the first function of a slang to some extent, because young people say stuff I just don't understand at all. What I can say is that over the years I "lost" most of my slang and went back to "proper" French (with some definition of "proper", maybe the author believes that the only true French is the one from Paris?). Some words stayed, many did not. Finally, I'd like to note the interesting choice of "delicious French expressions", half of which are actually nice ("Faire l’école buisssonière" and "Prendre le chemin des écoliers"), the other half much less (as they exclusively refer to women's sexuality, the last one "Elle a la cuisse légère" meaning "She's a slut"). It does not make me too sad when an expression disrespectful specifically to women disappears.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
There is little doubt that the level, be it vocabulary or grammar is dropping. This is evolution, but evolution in a specific direction. > It does not make me too sad when an expression disrespectful specifically to women disappears. That's completely beside the point. I think what the author means is that those expressions are disappearing to be replaced by cruder versions (in "mindless slang and Frenglish", not that the language is becoming more PC. And, obviously these are only examples.
- mamonster 3y ago
  Grammar is basically destroyed already. Like 6-7 years ago I would be impressed upon hearing correct usage of the subjonctif. These days I am impressed by the correct usage of passé simple in plural. In terms of vocabulary, much more annoying than any anglicism are "wallah" and "wesh" in every sentence, especially from middle class zoomers.
  - palata 3y ago
    > These days I am impressed by the correct usage of passé simple in plural. Are you sure you mean "passé simple" here?
- palata 3y ago
  > There is little doubt that the level, be it vocabulary or grammar is dropping. This is evolution, but evolution in a specific direction. Is it the same thing as saying that the language is disappearing, though? In my life, I have seen the end of my dialect. It has pretty much disappeared. I don't feel like French is remotely in the same situation. > That's completely beside the point. The author says: "Now, I can’t prove a cause and effect relationship between slang and Frenglish on the one hand and the disappearance of such expressions in the French language but the coincidence in time between the two categories of phenomena and this vanishing is troubling, at least". How is it completely beside the point to say that I don't find "Elle a la cuisse légère" to be "exquisite", and that my not using it is not due to "mindless slang and Frenglish" but out of respect for women?