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I have nightmares about this. The comments here saying that PayPal is just for hobby projects and should be avoided are living in a different reality. For me (

by gndk 3y ago

I have nightmares about this. The comments here saying that PayPal is just for hobby projects and should be avoided are living in a different reality. For me (e-commerce business, mainly in Germany), PayPal makes up around 70-80% of revenue and isn't easily replacable. I'm sure some customers would whip out their creditcard (if they even have one) or enter their long IBAN bank account numbers for direct debit, but many probably wouldn't. The convenience of PayPal is unmatched.

helsinkiandrew 3y ago
What about adding Stripe/Google Pay/Amazon Pay as a choice, or if you have enough revenue history VISA etc through a merchant account. The real issue is that if you start getting chargebacks - you will be liable for them. A bank might ask for payment, Paypal just grabs any money in your account and locks it. If you keep an eye on the level of chargebacks you should be able to sleep better!
- pbmonster 3y ago
  > What about adding Stripe/Google Pay/Amazon Pay as a choice Not even close in popularity in Germany. People just don't use it. Would be surprised if more than 10% of transactions would move to that if offered while PayPal is still there.
- gndk 3y ago
  Adding more payment methods is definitely key. But like the sibling comment says, they don't come close to PayPal's popularity. So its a reasonable fallback, but I wouldn't remove PayPal voluntarily. Chargebacks are interesting in our case, since we barely get any and if we do, we solve any cases super quick. I remember a few years ago, I talked to some PayPal representative from their business team (so higher level, not normal support) and they mentioned how they had never seen an account with such a low amount of cases. Keeping that up is a big focus for us.
- Degorath 3y ago
  Do any of those support German bank accounts? (PayPal does) Plus, as far as I can tell, Google Pay only works on mobile phones.
  - jakubmazanec 3y ago
    > Google Pay only works on mobile phones. What do you mean? I regularly use Google Pay on various websites on desktop.
nness 3y ago
I wonder if this might be a case of PayPal in the US vs. Europe — at least with regards to charge-backs. It seems that the burden of proof in the EU is much higher before an issuer will allow a charge-back — at least anecdotally, the credit cards I've used require you to prove that you tried to resolve the issue with the merchant first, prior to charge-back. Even then, charge-backs would negatively impact your account standing with the issuer, so are dissuaded.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  In my experience with Paypal that's not the case.
- gndk 3y ago
  I think many people in Germany actually have their bank account linked with PayPal, not their credit card. So PayPal uses direct debit to get the money from the customer and "floats" the payment to the merchant. Direct debit payments in the EU can be reverted within 8 weeks with just a few clicks in your online banking. Those cost around 8€ to whoever debited (I think thats cheaper than CC chargebacks?). I've never done it, but I think you don't even have to put a reason. That just starts the process though, so they might have to add more information later.
CalRobert 3y ago
Not sure what your sector is but how is Paypal easier than paddle, stripe, chargebee, etc? Actually, how do people buy stuff in Germany? I'm in the Netherlands and everything uses iDeal, which was annoying at first but now I like it. I use a credit card otherwise. When I was in Ireland I used a debit card which functioned like a credit card.
- aeyes 3y ago
  They are probably selling on eBay where it is (or used to be) very tightly integrated. In Germany eBay used to be very popular and that's how PayPal got so popular, it is one of PayPal's most established markets.
  - gndk 3y ago
    No, not selling on eBay, only through our own website. But you are probably right about eBay being the the reason for PayPal's popularity here.
- jabiko 3y ago
  > Actually, how do people buy stuff in Germany? Most of the options I observed are either PayPal, direct debit, Giropay, collect on delivery or credit card. I absolutely prefer direct debit. Just enter your name and IBAN and you are done. No 3rd party websites, no fuzz.
  - gndk 3y ago
    Direct debit would be great if the UX would be better. There are PSPs that make it easier for merchants (GoCardless), but entering the long IBAN is the crucial point. It would be great if there was a popular app/feature so you could save your IBAN in your phone/browser and just fill it in with one tap. That would skyrocket adoption and let merchants move away from expensive payment service providers.
- mcv 3y ago
  iDeal is how all online payment should work in my opinion. The merchant only needs to know to which bank they should redirect you, and that's all. Your data and your money as as safe as your own bank is able to make them. The only downside is that it's only for Dutch consumers, and therefore international support is very spotty (Steam supports it, Lego does not). This weekend I heard a rumour that they might be making it international, though. That would be really nice.
jpalomaki 3y ago
When dealing with smaller vendors I (as customer) still prefer PayPal as payment method. Having PayPal as an option increases my probability of buying (hard to say how much). I guess I'm behaving this partly because I know PayPal can be hard against the vendors. For me this indicates that if vendor accepts PayPal, then they are probably not fraudulent.
rambambram 3y ago
I hope they add your long IBAN bank account number, instead of their own. ;) All jokes aside, I've good experience inside the whole EU with receiving money for (digital) goods. Just from one simple bank account to the next, inside EU. I think it is a really overlooked paying method. We even built an 'internet friendly' website/webshop system around that fact (https://www.heyhomepage.com/?link=16 https://www.heyhomepage.com/?link=16)
- byyll 3y ago
  How does your system detect that an order is paid if it goes directly to the bank account of your clients?
  - rambambram 3y ago
    Like the page explains: this is not for big webshops with thousands of orders a day and having small margins on each item. You have to see this way of running a webshop in the context of a small business just starting out. Each payment is checked on your bank account. You can do that once or multiple times a day, whatever your situation requires. Can be easily done with the current banking apps in Europe. The moment you received payment, you can process/fulfill the open orders and mark them as such. Whether that's clicking a button to send a digital file, or packing the order in a box or envelope and sending it. This might sound like a lot of work, and programmers probably only see the "this and that can be automated"-side of this webshop, but my clients with small webshops happily send their orders across Europe and laugh out loud when they spend only an hour a day on checking payments and shipping orders. They also don't have thousands of orders a day, of course. But they do have the margins to make it worth their while. And if their business grows, they can easily migrate off this webshop. They are not afraid to put in a little work now, and know they can automate things later.
- gndk 3y ago
  Yeah, bank transfers are still popular here, especially with older people. Either completely manual with (hopefully) automatic reconciliation through some reference number or with giropay/SOFORT.
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
> The convenience of PayPal is unmatched. I use Paypal because: - I don't have to enter or reveal card details - I will not get rejected by the website because they can't identify me sufficiently - It gets around the fact that I have US cards but I live in Europe, which tends to be disqualifying for most websites. - I can ship to an address other than my card address without problems - I can get a refund via Paypal within 90 or 180 days with much much less effort than doing a change back via my bank. Always keep in mind that you're benefiting from these things as much as the buyers are, in that they give you revenue, you can always not use Paypal and reduce your risk, but then you lose revenue. You'll also suffer from more fraud using other payment methods, etc. Such is business.
is_true 3y ago
I thought just like you for more than 15 years, then I understood why people were so reluctant to have money in paypal.
ghusto 3y ago
> The convenience of PayPal is unmatched Every time I see PayPal, I hit the 'nah, just let me fill in my card details'. I think you're overestimating their worth, and underestimating both your customers and the competition. As someone already pointed out: "Stripe/Google Pay/Amazon Pay" are available, to name just the most recognisable ones. There are others with better fees!
- gndk 3y ago
  Maybe I'm overestimating and most customers would go through the trouble of manually filling in their payment details, but it's scary to find out :-) Fees are a good point. PayPal's fixed fee (0,35€ per transaction on top of the percentage) is actually kinda painful, since we have relatively low average order value.
  - Timshel 3y ago
    > but it's scary to find out :-) Do you have an exclusivity clause ? It might be costly but I don’t understand scary. What I would find scary is the risk that they ban you if you have only one payment processor.
    - gndk 3y ago
      With scary I'm referring to the potentially lost revenue if customers end up aborting their order instead of choosing another payment method if PayPal is not available anymore. We offer both credit card and direct debit payment outside of PayPal (through Mollie.com), but people just prefer PayPal for the convenience and added buyer protection. Since 2021, normal credit card payments in the EU also require 3DSecure verification, which causes many people to abort the payment for whatever reason (maybe they don't know how it works / don't have it set up correctly). Having multiple payment processors is extremely important and I'm actively working on that. For example having multiple credit card processors and integrations ready to go. If you are paying with your credit card without using PayPal, you don't tend to care which processor the merchant uses. PayPal is just a special case because its so popular.
- 3y ago
bluecrab 3y ago
There's paddle, lemonsqueezy and even buymeacoffee. PayPal is too shady

by gndk 3y ago

helsinkiandrew 3y ago

What about adding Stripe/Google Pay/Amazon Pay as a choice, or if you have enough revenue history VISA etc through a merchant account. The real issue is that if you start getting chargebacks - you will be liable for them. A bank might ask for payment, Paypal just grabs any money in your account and locks it. If you keep an eye on the level of chargebacks you should be able to sleep better!

pbmonster 3y ago
> What about adding Stripe/Google Pay/Amazon Pay as a choice Not even close in popularity in Germany. People just don't use it. Would be surprised if more than 10% of transactions would move to that if offered while PayPal is still there.
gndk 3y ago
Adding more payment methods is definitely key. But like the sibling comment says, they don't come close to PayPal's popularity. So its a reasonable fallback, but I wouldn't remove PayPal voluntarily. Chargebacks are interesting in our case, since we barely get any and if we do, we solve any cases super quick. I remember a few years ago, I talked to some PayPal representative from their business team (so higher level, not normal support) and they mentioned how they had never seen an account with such a low amount of cases. Keeping that up is a big focus for us.
Degorath 3y ago
Do any of those support German bank accounts? (PayPal does) Plus, as far as I can tell, Google Pay only works on mobile phones.
- jakubmazanec 3y ago
  > Google Pay only works on mobile phones. What do you mean? I regularly use Google Pay on various websites on desktop.

nness 3y ago

I wonder if this might be a case of PayPal in the US vs. Europe — at least with regards to charge-backs. It seems that the burden of proof in the EU is much higher before an issuer will allow a charge-back — at least anecdotally, the credit cards I've used require you to prove that you tried to resolve the issue with the merchant first, prior to charge-back. Even then, charge-backs would negatively impact your account standing with the issuer, so are dissuaded.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
In my experience with Paypal that's not the case.
gndk 3y ago
I think many people in Germany actually have their bank account linked with PayPal, not their credit card. So PayPal uses direct debit to get the money from the customer and "floats" the payment to the merchant. Direct debit payments in the EU can be reverted within 8 weeks with just a few clicks in your online banking. Those cost around 8€ to whoever debited (I think thats cheaper than CC chargebacks?). I've never done it, but I think you don't even have to put a reason. That just starts the process though, so they might have to add more information later.

CalRobert 3y ago

Not sure what your sector is but how is Paypal easier than paddle, stripe, chargebee, etc? Actually, how do people buy stuff in Germany? I'm in the Netherlands and everything uses iDeal, which was annoying at first but now I like it. I use a credit card otherwise. When I was in Ireland I used a debit card which functioned like a credit card.

aeyes 3y ago
They are probably selling on eBay where it is (or used to be) very tightly integrated. In Germany eBay used to be very popular and that's how PayPal got so popular, it is one of PayPal's most established markets.
- gndk 3y ago
  No, not selling on eBay, only through our own website. But you are probably right about eBay being the the reason for PayPal's popularity here.
jabiko 3y ago
> Actually, how do people buy stuff in Germany? Most of the options I observed are either PayPal, direct debit, Giropay, collect on delivery or credit card. I absolutely prefer direct debit. Just enter your name and IBAN and you are done. No 3rd party websites, no fuzz.
- gndk 3y ago
  Direct debit would be great if the UX would be better. There are PSPs that make it easier for merchants (GoCardless), but entering the long IBAN is the crucial point. It would be great if there was a popular app/feature so you could save your IBAN in your phone/browser and just fill it in with one tap. That would skyrocket adoption and let merchants move away from expensive payment service providers.
mcv 3y ago
iDeal is how all online payment should work in my opinion. The merchant only needs to know to which bank they should redirect you, and that's all. Your data and your money as as safe as your own bank is able to make them. The only downside is that it's only for Dutch consumers, and therefore international support is very spotty (Steam supports it, Lego does not). This weekend I heard a rumour that they might be making it international, though. That would be really nice.

jpalomaki 3y ago

When dealing with smaller vendors I (as customer) still prefer PayPal as payment method. Having PayPal as an option increases my probability of buying (hard to say how much). I guess I'm behaving this partly because I know PayPal can be hard against the vendors. For me this indicates that if vendor accepts PayPal, then they are probably not fraudulent.

rambambram 3y ago

I hope they add your long IBAN bank account number, instead of their own. ;) All jokes aside, I've good experience inside the whole EU with receiving money for (digital) goods. Just from one simple bank account to the next, inside EU. I think it is a really overlooked paying method. We even built an 'internet friendly' website/webshop system around that fact (https://www.heyhomepage.com/?link=16 https://www.heyhomepage.com/?link=16)

byyll 3y ago
How does your system detect that an order is paid if it goes directly to the bank account of your clients?
- rambambram 3y ago
  Like the page explains: this is not for big webshops with thousands of orders a day and having small margins on each item. You have to see this way of running a webshop in the context of a small business just starting out. Each payment is checked on your bank account. You can do that once or multiple times a day, whatever your situation requires. Can be easily done with the current banking apps in Europe. The moment you received payment, you can process/fulfill the open orders and mark them as such. Whether that's clicking a button to send a digital file, or packing the order in a box or envelope and sending it. This might sound like a lot of work, and programmers probably only see the "this and that can be automated"-side of this webshop, but my clients with small webshops happily send their orders across Europe and laugh out loud when they spend only an hour a day on checking payments and shipping orders. They also don't have thousands of orders a day, of course. But they do have the margins to make it worth their while. And if their business grows, they can easily migrate off this webshop. They are not afraid to put in a little work now, and know they can automate things later.
gndk 3y ago
Yeah, bank transfers are still popular here, especially with older people. Either completely manual with (hopefully) automatic reconciliation through some reference number or with giropay/SOFORT.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago

> The convenience of PayPal is unmatched. I use Paypal because: - I don't have to enter or reveal card details - I will not get rejected by the website because they can't identify me sufficiently - It gets around the fact that I have US cards but I live in Europe, which tends to be disqualifying for most websites. - I can ship to an address other than my card address without problems - I can get a refund via Paypal within 90 or 180 days with much much less effort than doing a change back via my bank. Always keep in mind that you're benefiting from these things as much as the buyers are, in that they give you revenue, you can always not use Paypal and reduce your risk, but then you lose revenue. You'll also suffer from more fraud using other payment methods, etc. Such is business.

is_true 3y ago

I thought just like you for more than 15 years, then I understood why people were so reluctant to have money in paypal.

ghusto 3y ago

> The convenience of PayPal is unmatched Every time I see PayPal, I hit the 'nah, just let me fill in my card details'. I think you're overestimating their worth, and underestimating both your customers and the competition. As someone already pointed out: "Stripe/Google Pay/Amazon Pay" are available, to name just the most recognisable ones. There are others with better fees!

gndk 3y ago
Maybe I'm overestimating and most customers would go through the trouble of manually filling in their payment details, but it's scary to find out :-) Fees are a good point. PayPal's fixed fee (0,35€ per transaction on top of the percentage) is actually kinda painful, since we have relatively low average order value.
- Timshel 3y ago
  > but it's scary to find out :-) Do you have an exclusivity clause ? It might be costly but I don’t understand scary. What I would find scary is the risk that they ban you if you have only one payment processor.
  - gndk 3y ago
    With scary I'm referring to the potentially lost revenue if customers end up aborting their order instead of choosing another payment method if PayPal is not available anymore. We offer both credit card and direct debit payment outside of PayPal (through Mollie.com), but people just prefer PayPal for the convenience and added buyer protection. Since 2021, normal credit card payments in the EU also require 3DSecure verification, which causes many people to abort the payment for whatever reason (maybe they don't know how it works / don't have it set up correctly). Having multiple payment processors is extremely important and I'm actively working on that. For example having multiple credit card processors and integrations ready to go. If you are paying with your credit card without using PayPal, you don't tend to care which processor the merchant uses. PayPal is just a special case because its so popular.
3y ago

bluecrab 3y ago

There's paddle, lemonsqueezy and even buymeacoffee. PayPal is too shady