4 ms·

> Traffic will get worse until taking alternative means transportation is faster Alternate modes of transportation don't even have to be faster, it just can't

> Traffic will get worse until taking alternative means transportation is faster Alternate modes of transportation don't even have to be faster, it just can't be substantially worse. I'd gladly add an extra 10-15 to my travel time if I can spend that trip relaxing in a comfortable and well-maintained train and not have to deal with traffic, other drivers, parking, etc. People will still want cars, and in many cases still need them, but a huge percentage of our driving could be eliminated as long as public transportation was made the more attractive option.

bluGill 3y ago
I always tell people I want them to get rid of a car - most people live in a family situation where there is more than one driver. If there was a good transit system they could keep one car (to tow the boat or whatever it is that transit can't do), and save a large pile of money. As you say, better can mean a little slower, but not a lot slower. Creating a better transit system is expensive, but still cheaper than cars.
- dboreham 3y ago
  > but still cheaper than cars Overall for society yes, but in most places where transit is widely used, it is quite costly. E.g. a season ticket between Reading and London is 512UKP/mo. For the individual traveler it may not be cheaper especially if they already need to own a car to go to Tesco etc.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of_British_Rail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of...
  - TulliusCicero 3y ago
    Meanwhile, when I was living in Munich a few years back, an annual pass covering the whole city was like 500 EUR. For the year. That plus a bike made for great urban transportation.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    That price is much higher than I expected. About $650 US dollars if I did the conversion right. I have a truck I almost never drive (the fuel gauge is broke so I fill it 2x year just to ensure I never run out). Between taxes, insurance, fuel, and maintenance I'm still spending $100/month just to keep it in my driveway - that is about as low as you can possibly get for a car. That trip it is about 40 miles (plus distance to/from the stations, but lets assume you live next to the station and are going to the other station). At 20mpg, going to/from work every day you are using a bit over $200 of gas per month (In Europe fuel prices are a lot higher than the US, I don't know must how but $600 would not surprise me) Of course realistic if you are driving that much you are not going to be able to keep a paid off car on the road for very long, plus you have maintenance. Between payments when the car isn't paid off and maintenance you are probably averaging $200/month - for the cheapest car. (you can lease new cars for $900/month). I'm already at $500/month to drive a car, and I'm assuming the cheapest reasonable prices. Realistically people making that trip every day are likely to have more expensive cars. And of course I used US prices while UK prices would be very different. Cars are expensive, and so even when you pick a transit trip much more expensive than I think is reasonable cars still come up expensive.
throw0101c 3y ago
> Alternate modes of transportation don't even have to be faster, it just can't be substantially worse. Or perhaps (also?) at least consistent. While there are trips that can be 'too long', I think what a lot of people hate a lot (maybe even most) is variability. If a trip is (e.g.) 43 minutes for >95% of the time, then they'll probably accept it. But if sometimes it is 30 minutes, sometimes 43, sometimes 57, and everything in between, then it's hard to plan your life around that.
- UtopiaPunk 3y ago
  Maybe. That variability is frustrating, but it exists terribly with driving as well. Rush hours, wrecks, construction, etc all can significantly impact driving times, too.
  - genocidicbunny 3y ago
    My personal observation is that it's somewhat about control. With public transport, I have no control over the delays; If there's a delay, there's more or less nothing I can do about it. If driving, I can maybe choose an alternate route, and even if I can't do that, at least I am in control of the vehicle and _I_ am the one making the decisions. A related behaviour I've observed is how some drivers prefer to be moving very slowly rather than being in stop-and-go traffic, even if both end up getting you to the same destination.
    - UtopiaPunk 3y ago
      I suppose there's a mental framing aspect to feeling "in control." When I am in traffic behind the wheel of my car, I feel utterly stuck. Practically, I can do nothing but drive the vehicle and maybe listen to a podcast. When in a bus or train, I can read a book, play a video game, or answer emails/texts on my phone. If I'm on a really long journey, I can take out my laptop, connect it my phone's hotspot, and work on a project. Although, admittedly, waiting on a delayed train or bus in inclement weather can be pretty lousy. Having sheltered bus stops or indoor spaces (like a cafe) near stops/stations can make that experience much more comfortable.
graemep 3y ago
I hate driving. I never had one when i lived in London. I did not have one in Manchester until I had a child. I rented a car if I needed (e.g. for a holiday) or took a taxi. Whenever I have a choice I use public transport or have someone else drive. Other places I have lived in I need a car, but a small hatchback is fine, and the next time I plan to get a smaller one - cheaper to run, easier to park, better for the environment and the roads.
Sakos 3y ago
This. Currently, going to the office means 1,5 hours by train (or more if there are delays or trains are cancelled, which isn't uncommon in Germany) or 30-40 minutes by car. I'm not risking a 2 hour commute unless I absolutely have no other choice. Unfortunately, the company I work for doesn't let me do full remote.
tshaddox 3y ago
That’s exactly right. I lived in San Francisco for 10 years and there were a shocking number of trips where the public transit route was one missed transfer or minor traffic incident away from taking longer than walking.

bluGill 3y ago

I always tell people I want them to get rid of a car - most people live in a family situation where there is more than one driver. If there was a good transit system they could keep one car (to tow the boat or whatever it is that transit can't do), and save a large pile of money. As you say, better can mean a little slower, but not a lot slower. Creating a better transit system is expensive, but still cheaper than cars.

dboreham 3y ago
> but still cheaper than cars Overall for society yes, but in most places where transit is widely used, it is quite costly. E.g. a season ticket between Reading and London is 512UKP/mo. For the individual traveler it may not be cheaper especially if they already need to own a car to go to Tesco etc.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of_British_Rail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of...
- TulliusCicero 3y ago
  Meanwhile, when I was living in Munich a few years back, an annual pass covering the whole city was like 500 EUR. For the year. That plus a bike made for great urban transportation.
- bluGill 3y ago
  That price is much higher than I expected. About $650 US dollars if I did the conversion right. I have a truck I almost never drive (the fuel gauge is broke so I fill it 2x year just to ensure I never run out). Between taxes, insurance, fuel, and maintenance I'm still spending $100/month just to keep it in my driveway - that is about as low as you can possibly get for a car. That trip it is about 40 miles (plus distance to/from the stations, but lets assume you live next to the station and are going to the other station). At 20mpg, going to/from work every day you are using a bit over $200 of gas per month (In Europe fuel prices are a lot higher than the US, I don't know must how but $600 would not surprise me) Of course realistic if you are driving that much you are not going to be able to keep a paid off car on the road for very long, plus you have maintenance. Between payments when the car isn't paid off and maintenance you are probably averaging $200/month - for the cheapest car. (you can lease new cars for $900/month). I'm already at $500/month to drive a car, and I'm assuming the cheapest reasonable prices. Realistically people making that trip every day are likely to have more expensive cars. And of course I used US prices while UK prices would be very different. Cars are expensive, and so even when you pick a transit trip much more expensive than I think is reasonable cars still come up expensive.

throw0101c 3y ago

> Alternate modes of transportation don't even have to be faster, it just can't be substantially worse. Or perhaps (also?) at least consistent. While there are trips that can be 'too long', I think what a lot of people hate a lot (maybe even most) is variability. If a trip is (e.g.) 43 minutes for >95% of the time, then they'll probably accept it. But if sometimes it is 30 minutes, sometimes 43, sometimes 57, and everything in between, then it's hard to plan your life around that.

UtopiaPunk 3y ago
Maybe. That variability is frustrating, but it exists terribly with driving as well. Rush hours, wrecks, construction, etc all can significantly impact driving times, too.
- genocidicbunny 3y ago
  My personal observation is that it's somewhat about control. With public transport, I have no control over the delays; If there's a delay, there's more or less nothing I can do about it. If driving, I can maybe choose an alternate route, and even if I can't do that, at least I am in control of the vehicle and _I_ am the one making the decisions. A related behaviour I've observed is how some drivers prefer to be moving very slowly rather than being in stop-and-go traffic, even if both end up getting you to the same destination.
  - UtopiaPunk 3y ago
    I suppose there's a mental framing aspect to feeling "in control." When I am in traffic behind the wheel of my car, I feel utterly stuck. Practically, I can do nothing but drive the vehicle and maybe listen to a podcast. When in a bus or train, I can read a book, play a video game, or answer emails/texts on my phone. If I'm on a really long journey, I can take out my laptop, connect it my phone's hotspot, and work on a project. Although, admittedly, waiting on a delayed train or bus in inclement weather can be pretty lousy. Having sheltered bus stops or indoor spaces (like a cafe) near stops/stations can make that experience much more comfortable.

graemep 3y ago

I hate driving. I never had one when i lived in London. I did not have one in Manchester until I had a child. I rented a car if I needed (e.g. for a holiday) or took a taxi. Whenever I have a choice I use public transport or have someone else drive. Other places I have lived in I need a car, but a small hatchback is fine, and the next time I plan to get a smaller one - cheaper to run, easier to park, better for the environment and the roads.

Sakos 3y ago

This. Currently, going to the office means 1,5 hours by train (or more if there are delays or trains are cancelled, which isn't uncommon in Germany) or 30-40 minutes by car. I'm not risking a 2 hour commute unless I absolutely have no other choice. Unfortunately, the company I work for doesn't let me do full remote.

tshaddox 3y ago

That’s exactly right. I lived in San Francisco for 10 years and there were a shocking number of trips where the public transit route was one missed transfer or minor traffic incident away from taking longer than walking.