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And yet the Chinese rail network is infinitely more productive, smaller in size, transports millions of people around a comparably sized country, in addition to

And yet the Chinese rail network is infinitely more productive, smaller in size, transports millions of people around a comparably sized country, in addition to the inputs and outputs of its massive industrial base, and is largely a state construction. It would seem that extent of rail is not the measure of value here, nor is that correlated with private ownership, but instead we should assess the overall productive capacity of the infrastructure.

jdlshore 3y ago
You’re comparing a passenger rail system to a freight rail system. Totally different beasts.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  …as the parent did when they asserted that the US has the largest rail network, which encompasses both, so no, not really “totally different beasts.”
- sitharus 3y ago
  Lets quickly check Wikipedia China: Total length: 155,000 km (100,000 km electrified) Total passenger/km: (1,470.66 billion passenger-kilometres, 2019) Total freight: 3,018 billion cargo tonne-kilometres (2019) US: Total length: 257,722 km (160,141 mi) (I can't find figures on electrified length, seems at most 2000km?) Total passenger/km: (10.3 billion, 2014) Total freight: 1.71 trillion short ton-mile, approx 963 billion tonne-kilometres (I used wolfram alpha for that conversion) So if my calculations are correct - which they may not be - on fewer rails China transports an order of magnitude more passenger and freight traffic.
  - anonexpat 3y ago
    94% of China's population lives in the 43% of the country closest to the ocean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heihe%E2%80%93Tengchong_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heihe%E2%80%93Tengchong_Line
    - ses1984 3y ago
      What percent of people in the US live in the 43% of the country closest to the ocean?
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    Your conversion is wrong. 1 mile is about 1.6 kilometers; 1 short ton is about 0.9 tonnes. One short ton-mile will be about 1.5 tonne-kilometers.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Rail networks aren't capacity-limited by the number of miles of track and China has three times the population. But the premise is meaningless. It's easy for a government to affect the usage of something by subsidizing it or constraining alternatives to it, which has little to do with whether it would be more efficient or well-managed as a public agency.
Almondsetat 3y ago
Chinese rail network is a money sink
onepointsixC 3y ago
Infinitely more productive? That's a claim. China's rail has $900B in loans, and profits haven't covered servicing that debt for nearly a decade.
volkl48 3y ago
US freight rail moves roughly 40% of the cargo in the country, China's moves about 15% (and is in long stagnation/decline in terms of how much it moves). Roughly 80% of what moves within China does so by an endless sea of trucks. That's a pretty huge difference in terms of modal share. And even with the sprawling size of the US network (and differences in things like labor costs), US freight rail is still more efficient at moving cargo in terms of costs.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  > That's a pretty huge difference in terms of modal share. Now do comparison of transporting people and that’s impact on the economy

jdlshore 3y ago

You’re comparing a passenger rail system to a freight rail system. Totally different beasts.

bugglebeetle 3y ago
…as the parent did when they asserted that the US has the largest rail network, which encompasses both, so no, not really “totally different beasts.”
sitharus 3y ago
Lets quickly check Wikipedia China: Total length: 155,000 km (100,000 km electrified) Total passenger/km: (1,470.66 billion passenger-kilometres, 2019) Total freight: 3,018 billion cargo tonne-kilometres (2019) US: Total length: 257,722 km (160,141 mi) (I can't find figures on electrified length, seems at most 2000km?) Total passenger/km: (10.3 billion, 2014) Total freight: 1.71 trillion short ton-mile, approx 963 billion tonne-kilometres (I used wolfram alpha for that conversion) So if my calculations are correct - which they may not be - on fewer rails China transports an order of magnitude more passenger and freight traffic.
- anonexpat 3y ago
  94% of China's population lives in the 43% of the country closest to the ocean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heihe%E2%80%93Tengchong_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heihe%E2%80%93Tengchong_Line
  - ses1984 3y ago
    What percent of people in the US live in the 43% of the country closest to the ocean?
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  Your conversion is wrong. 1 mile is about 1.6 kilometers; 1 short ton is about 0.9 tonnes. One short ton-mile will be about 1.5 tonne-kilometers.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Rail networks aren't capacity-limited by the number of miles of track and China has three times the population. But the premise is meaningless. It's easy for a government to affect the usage of something by subsidizing it or constraining alternatives to it, which has little to do with whether it would be more efficient or well-managed as a public agency.

Almondsetat 3y ago

Chinese rail network is a money sink

onepointsixC 3y ago

Infinitely more productive? That's a claim. China's rail has $900B in loans, and profits haven't covered servicing that debt for nearly a decade.

volkl48 3y ago

US freight rail moves roughly 40% of the cargo in the country, China's moves about 15% (and is in long stagnation/decline in terms of how much it moves). Roughly 80% of what moves within China does so by an endless sea of trucks. That's a pretty huge difference in terms of modal share. And even with the sprawling size of the US network (and differences in things like labor costs), US freight rail is still more efficient at moving cargo in terms of costs.

bugglebeetle 3y ago
> That's a pretty huge difference in terms of modal share. Now do comparison of transporting people and that’s impact on the economy