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Indeed, while it might not work in all cases you'd probably save enough time/money to make up for those cases where it didn't work out. I've often seen jobs pos

Indeed, while it might not work in all cases you'd probably save enough time/money to make up for those cases where it didn't work out. I've often seen jobs posted that stay open for 6 months or more because some hiring manager and their team can't make up their minds on who to hire. Meanwhile, the project they want to bring someone in to work on languishes, or people who are already stretched thin burn out and go elsewhere. There's such an emphasis now on hiring the perfect candidate that it's the enemy of actually getting things done.

zahllos 3y ago
This is very common where I am (Switzerland) and I agree entirely with your conclusion. It's not uncommon to see posts open for over 6 months and it often seems like this is because no candidate is good enough. In the intervening time, a candidate not quite ticking all the boxes but with motivation and energy could have learned what they needed to and moved whatever the project is forward.
- kuerbel 3y ago
  Do you think it might be because of the higher salaries? I live in Germany and they hire more easily, even though after usually 6 months it is harder for them to get rid of you than in Switzerland.
  - wiether 3y ago
    As a neighbor with the lowest salaries of the three countries (France) I can say that we have the same issue. And for me it's clearly a people one. It can be that the manager don't want to actually hire someone because they have personal interest of using consultants to do the job. Or the manager lack confidence and is looking for a unicorn to avoid making any mistake (probably the most common). Or the manager expectations are disconnected with the job proposal (they want a senior but the salary is for a junior or like said in another comment, they want someone with skills exactly aligned with the tech stack). Here we have a trial period of at least three months so it's quite easy to get rid of someone if they don't fit but it's rarely used in IT and I don't understand why. And once the trial is over, it's quite hard to get rid of someone. But basically it seems that once your in, if the trial period is used as a quick exit it's mainly by the new employee and not by the company.
    - zahllos 3y ago
      I didn't quite know how to answer but you've hit the nail on the head. Thanks! I agree. In Switzerland employment law is governed by the code des obligations, or for the parent poster who asked in the first place, Obligationenrecht. There are various notice periods, 1 week in the first 3 months, 1 month for the first year and so on. An employer isn't required to give a reason for dismissing someone either. I think it is entirely a people issue.
strken 3y ago
One of the biggest blights on the industry is the insistence on matching tech stack. Most jobs need a handful of strict but broad requirements like "has worked in a garbage-collected compiled language" or "has used a SQL database" or "has used the .NET ecosystem", or they're looking for a specialist in a particular field like compiler design or distributed systems. Instead they've got a list of hard requirements: "Go, PostgreSQL, Azure, gRPC, 10 years of experience with RAFT (other consensus algorithms like PAXOS not acceptable), some obscure ORM," etc. Not all hiring managers and not even all engineers understand that every requirement winnows down the available candidates. Eventually you're left with only the people who are desperate enough to apply despite not meeting half your list of requirements. Those candidates are on average not as strong as the ones you'd get if you just asked for software engineers with any experience in consensus algorithms and listed your tech stack as an FYI.
- mattgreenrocks 3y ago
  Similar to this is demanding skills in specific AWS services. It is incredibly grating because they end up fixating on mostly BS, non-transferable knowledge because it’s easy to test for.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  One of the best jobs I've ever had needed C++ as a requirement. I knew C, but not C++. Hiring manager said, "It's just a language, you can learn it." Went on to join the highest performing team I've ever worked on. I miss the first few years of that job... before the acquisition!

zahllos 3y ago

This is very common where I am (Switzerland) and I agree entirely with your conclusion. It's not uncommon to see posts open for over 6 months and it often seems like this is because no candidate is good enough. In the intervening time, a candidate not quite ticking all the boxes but with motivation and energy could have learned what they needed to and moved whatever the project is forward.

kuerbel 3y ago
Do you think it might be because of the higher salaries? I live in Germany and they hire more easily, even though after usually 6 months it is harder for them to get rid of you than in Switzerland.
- wiether 3y ago
  As a neighbor with the lowest salaries of the three countries (France) I can say that we have the same issue. And for me it's clearly a people one. It can be that the manager don't want to actually hire someone because they have personal interest of using consultants to do the job. Or the manager lack confidence and is looking for a unicorn to avoid making any mistake (probably the most common). Or the manager expectations are disconnected with the job proposal (they want a senior but the salary is for a junior or like said in another comment, they want someone with skills exactly aligned with the tech stack). Here we have a trial period of at least three months so it's quite easy to get rid of someone if they don't fit but it's rarely used in IT and I don't understand why. And once the trial is over, it's quite hard to get rid of someone. But basically it seems that once your in, if the trial period is used as a quick exit it's mainly by the new employee and not by the company.
  - zahllos 3y ago
    I didn't quite know how to answer but you've hit the nail on the head. Thanks! I agree. In Switzerland employment law is governed by the code des obligations, or for the parent poster who asked in the first place, Obligationenrecht. There are various notice periods, 1 week in the first 3 months, 1 month for the first year and so on. An employer isn't required to give a reason for dismissing someone either. I think it is entirely a people issue.

strken 3y ago

One of the biggest blights on the industry is the insistence on matching tech stack. Most jobs need a handful of strict but broad requirements like "has worked in a garbage-collected compiled language" or "has used a SQL database" or "has used the .NET ecosystem", or they're looking for a specialist in a particular field like compiler design or distributed systems. Instead they've got a list of hard requirements: "Go, PostgreSQL, Azure, gRPC, 10 years of experience with RAFT (other consensus algorithms like PAXOS not acceptable), some obscure ORM," etc. Not all hiring managers and not even all engineers understand that every requirement winnows down the available candidates. Eventually you're left with only the people who are desperate enough to apply despite not meeting half your list of requirements. Those candidates are on average not as strong as the ones you'd get if you just asked for software engineers with any experience in consensus algorithms and listed your tech stack as an FYI.

mattgreenrocks 3y ago
Similar to this is demanding skills in specific AWS services. It is incredibly grating because they end up fixating on mostly BS, non-transferable knowledge because it’s easy to test for.
HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
One of the best jobs I've ever had needed C++ as a requirement. I knew C, but not C++. Hiring manager said, "It's just a language, you can learn it." Went on to join the highest performing team I've ever worked on. I miss the first few years of that job... before the acquisition!