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Because you aren't their property. You just invented that straw man. And the simple act of using a phone is you making a conscious decision to agree to accept

Because you aren't their property. You just invented that straw man. And the simple act of using a phone is you making a conscious decision to agree to accept the terms and conditions that come with buying any product. You are in no way forced to and by supporting alternatives you help to change the market for everyone.

withinboredom 3y ago
Where can I read the terms and conditions for my shoes? My pants? What about my vase I bought? Objects don’t come with terms and conditions.
- haswell 3y ago
  Your shoes and pants don't depend on Apple infrastructure and engineering resources to function. Your vase doesn't run software. These phones are not inanimate objects; they are computers that run software that is distributed under terms and conditions, and depend on central services the access to which is governed by terms and conditions. I understand the position that this is a Bad Thing. I'm typing this from a Linux machine for that reason. But the analogy here is problematic. Edit: to be clear, this comment is not endorsing Apple’s position. I understand it, even if I don’t like it. The point is that the acceptable use of a shoe is not instructive here.
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    An iPhone doesn’t depend on Apple to function. It is only that way because Apple programmed it from the factory like that. There are zero laws that prevent me from taking it apart, running it over, tossing it off a bridge (well, maybe that last one because littering is usually illegal). There’s not even any laws preventing me from flashing the device with whatever code I want. If you want to complain that a phone needs Apple infrastructure to function, you should check out the phones from the 80’s and 90’s. They were a lot bulkier but a phone doesn’t inherently need software and internet to function. These are computers, with modems, that happen to fit in the palm of your hand. They aren’t specialized, by any stretch of an imagination. The iPad even has the exact same CPUs that are literally used in computers. So, saying these things are somehow special is a little bit silly. The only thing special is the locked down code that came preinstalled that I sometimes regret agreeing to using. If I could go back in time, I’d disagree and then sue Apple for selling me a device I couldn’t use and make them allow me to install Linux. Sadly, I need a phone more than I have money to waste.
    - haswell 3y ago
      > An iPhone doesn’t depend on Apple to function. It is only that way because Apple programmed it from the factory like that. An iPhone doesn’t depend on Apple the same way a PlayStation 5 doesn’t depend on Sony. Most people buy the iPhone not just for the electronic components but for the entire ecosystem of apps and experiences, which are built on a foundation of Apple core APIs. Even when Sony did support running Linux on the PS3, doing so was mutually exclusive with accessing Sony’s platform and playing games. > They aren’t specialized, by any stretch of an imagination. Specialization and vertical integration is what Apple is famous for. If these were not specialized, we should see similar devices on the market to satisfy all manner of customers similar to what we see with general purpose hardware. The reason general purpose hardware hasn’t produced a myriad of clones reminiscent of the early PC era is exactly because of how specialized and difficult these devices are to make. > If I could go back in time, I’d disagree and then sue Apple for selling me a device I couldn’t use and make them allow me to install Linux. I’m not asking this to be snarky; I’m genuinely curious: why do you want an iPhone then? Why not an Android phone that is far more permissive, or a PinePhone that is philosophically aligned with what it sounds like you want? I guess I just don’t understand the mindset. I run Linux on hardware that is meant to run whatever I want. I run games on my Xbox, and don’t lose sleep over it. I use an iPhone because I need my communication device to “just work”, and no other general purpose hardware I’ve ever owned has achieved this. Do I wish the iPhone was more flexible? Yeah, I really do. But I also understand why it’s not, and what that lack of flexibility provides me.
      - withinboredom 3y ago
        > An iPhone doesn’t depend on Apple the same way a PlayStation 5 doesn’t depend on Sony. Your presumption here is that Sony is in the right. Who says they are? The original PS3 allowed installing Linux and they only removed it due to the maintenance burden -- almost nobody was using it except the US government. Even still, you can upload your own OS to a PS5. There's no magic hardware stopping you. You can even replace parts ... or even just rip it out and make a handheld device like one guy did on youtube. You can't do that with a modern iPhone. It will brick itself if you replace the screen. > If these were not specialized, we should see similar devices on the market to satisfy all manner of customers similar to what we see with general purpose hardware So, you're saying that Samsung doesn't sell cellphones? The hardware is so specialized that Apple is the only one who can make a cellphone? I find that extremely hard to believe that Apple hardware doesn't use electronic circuits, CPU's, and other modern technology. Are you asserting that iPhone's run on magic? > I’m genuinely curious: why do you want an iPhone then? I moved out of my home country and my parents have an iPhone. We literally own one just to use FaceTime with them because they don't understand whatsapp and they want to talk to my son. Beyond that, I make apps, and I need a physical device to test things on. > But I also understand why it’s not, and what that lack of flexibility provides me. I don't understand why there is a lack of flexibility. I have a few custom tools I've built, and having to reinstall them every week makes it utterly pointless to use an iPhone. How is that a reasonable lack of flexibility?

withinboredom 3y ago

Where can I read the terms and conditions for my shoes? My pants? What about my vase I bought? Objects don’t come with terms and conditions.

haswell 3y ago
Your shoes and pants don't depend on Apple infrastructure and engineering resources to function. Your vase doesn't run software. These phones are not inanimate objects; they are computers that run software that is distributed under terms and conditions, and depend on central services the access to which is governed by terms and conditions. I understand the position that this is a Bad Thing. I'm typing this from a Linux machine for that reason. But the analogy here is problematic. Edit: to be clear, this comment is not endorsing Apple’s position. I understand it, even if I don’t like it. The point is that the acceptable use of a shoe is not instructive here.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  An iPhone doesn’t depend on Apple to function. It is only that way because Apple programmed it from the factory like that. There are zero laws that prevent me from taking it apart, running it over, tossing it off a bridge (well, maybe that last one because littering is usually illegal). There’s not even any laws preventing me from flashing the device with whatever code I want. If you want to complain that a phone needs Apple infrastructure to function, you should check out the phones from the 80’s and 90’s. They were a lot bulkier but a phone doesn’t inherently need software and internet to function. These are computers, with modems, that happen to fit in the palm of your hand. They aren’t specialized, by any stretch of an imagination. The iPad even has the exact same CPUs that are literally used in computers. So, saying these things are somehow special is a little bit silly. The only thing special is the locked down code that came preinstalled that I sometimes regret agreeing to using. If I could go back in time, I’d disagree and then sue Apple for selling me a device I couldn’t use and make them allow me to install Linux. Sadly, I need a phone more than I have money to waste.
  - haswell 3y ago
    > An iPhone doesn’t depend on Apple to function. It is only that way because Apple programmed it from the factory like that. An iPhone doesn’t depend on Apple the same way a PlayStation 5 doesn’t depend on Sony. Most people buy the iPhone not just for the electronic components but for the entire ecosystem of apps and experiences, which are built on a foundation of Apple core APIs. Even when Sony did support running Linux on the PS3, doing so was mutually exclusive with accessing Sony’s platform and playing games. > They aren’t specialized, by any stretch of an imagination. Specialization and vertical integration is what Apple is famous for. If these were not specialized, we should see similar devices on the market to satisfy all manner of customers similar to what we see with general purpose hardware. The reason general purpose hardware hasn’t produced a myriad of clones reminiscent of the early PC era is exactly because of how specialized and difficult these devices are to make. > If I could go back in time, I’d disagree and then sue Apple for selling me a device I couldn’t use and make them allow me to install Linux. I’m not asking this to be snarky; I’m genuinely curious: why do you want an iPhone then? Why not an Android phone that is far more permissive, or a PinePhone that is philosophically aligned with what it sounds like you want? I guess I just don’t understand the mindset. I run Linux on hardware that is meant to run whatever I want. I run games on my Xbox, and don’t lose sleep over it. I use an iPhone because I need my communication device to “just work”, and no other general purpose hardware I’ve ever owned has achieved this. Do I wish the iPhone was more flexible? Yeah, I really do. But I also understand why it’s not, and what that lack of flexibility provides me.
    - withinboredom 3y ago
      > An iPhone doesn’t depend on Apple the same way a PlayStation 5 doesn’t depend on Sony. Your presumption here is that Sony is in the right. Who says they are? The original PS3 allowed installing Linux and they only removed it due to the maintenance burden -- almost nobody was using it except the US government. Even still, you can upload your own OS to a PS5. There's no magic hardware stopping you. You can even replace parts ... or even just rip it out and make a handheld device like one guy did on youtube. You can't do that with a modern iPhone. It will brick itself if you replace the screen. > If these were not specialized, we should see similar devices on the market to satisfy all manner of customers similar to what we see with general purpose hardware So, you're saying that Samsung doesn't sell cellphones? The hardware is so specialized that Apple is the only one who can make a cellphone? I find that extremely hard to believe that Apple hardware doesn't use electronic circuits, CPU's, and other modern technology. Are you asserting that iPhone's run on magic? > I’m genuinely curious: why do you want an iPhone then? I moved out of my home country and my parents have an iPhone. We literally own one just to use FaceTime with them because they don't understand whatsapp and they want to talk to my son. Beyond that, I make apps, and I need a physical device to test things on. > But I also understand why it’s not, and what that lack of flexibility provides me. I don't understand why there is a lack of flexibility. I have a few custom tools I've built, and having to reinstall them every week makes it utterly pointless to use an iPhone. How is that a reasonable lack of flexibility?