5 ms·

No mention of Cloudflare’s own large portfolio of software patents. Wonder when they’ll start enforcing their patent on CNAME flattening, for example: https:/

No mention of Cloudflare’s own large portfolio of software patents. Wonder when they’ll start enforcing their patent on CNAME flattening, for example: https://patents.justia.com/patent/11159479 https://patents.justia.com/patent/11159479 Edit; clarity

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 3y ago
Why should there be a mention about their patents?
- creeble 3y ago
  So that one can begin to judge how duplicitous their claims in defence of another's 'invalid' patent my be.
  - patmcc 3y ago
    If Cloudflare starts trying to sue or shake down folks with their patents, this will be a very valid point. Until then it's a little silly; everybody holds patents for (at least) defensive reasons.
    - MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
      Exactly. As long as that's how the game is played you must play it or you will be sued out of existence.
    - creeble 3y ago
      But that’s generally where the trolls get their patents from - what were once large companies (like, in Cloudflare’s recent case, Caspian Networks). My point (if any) is that while we pat Cloudflare on the back for “taking down a troll”, they are complicit (as are many companies these days) in assisting the creation of future trolls who will mine their own, more general, perhaps “obvious to someone familiar with the art”, patents like CNAME flattening.
      - patmcc 3y ago
        Sure, but what's the solution (if you're Cloudflare)? You can patent CNAME flattening, only use it defensively, and maybe you eventually go bankrupt and someone scoops it up (not great). Or you can NOT patent it...and some troll probably will, and can now use it offensively. The solution is patent reform on this kind of obvious bullshit, but that's not something Cloudflare can solve.
empath-nirvana 3y ago
It's a defensive patent portfolio. They use it to counter sue if a competitor sues them.
- EvanAnderson 3y ago
  Edit: Removed a bone-headed hypothetical.
  - brlewis 3y ago
    You lose a trademark if you don't defend it. I don't believe the same is true of patents.
    - EvanAnderson 3y ago
      My face is red. Thanks. I didn't stop and think long enough before I posted.
  - toast0 3y ago
    > My understanding is a patent holder must defend their rights, if they are aware of the infringement, at the peril of losing them. Pretty sure that's just for trademarks.
    - EvanAnderson 3y ago
      Agh. Absolutely. Wrong flavor of "intellectual property". Thanks.
      - michael1999 3y ago
        And that's why Stallman is so firm that there is no such thing as "intellectual property". As soon as you start using that term, you start believing there is something more general and meaningful to it and start muddying the concepts. But it is just a mirage. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.en.html
rainsford 3y ago
I recognize my position is far from airtight, but I'm honestly way, way less bothered by the fact that companies like Cloudflare have a large patent portfolio simply because they actually build useful stuff related to their patents. There is a robust debate to be had on the validity of obvious or generic software patents that only questionably constitute legitimate "invention", but that's almost entirely separate from the problem of the bottom feeding pond scum that collect patents for no other reason than to attempt to enrich themselves via parasitic extraction from people who had similar ideas but actually used them to create something useful. The former might be trying to get exclusivity from something that anyone could have come up with, but at least their idea is useful to someone. The latter brings nothing of value to anyone except maybe themselves, and arguably negative value to everyone else.
- djmips 3y ago
  The real danger is if Cloudflare is threatened and on life support - does their culture maintain or what if it changes hands or fails completely and it's patent portfolio is acquired by litigious trolls.
  - creeble 3y ago
    As happened to Caspian Networks in the current case. There is no resolution to the troll problem if you just keep playing the same game. So I’m not sure why we congratulate companies for “taking down trolls” when their own patent portfolio will (just as likely as not) add to the troll problem of the future. Would Project Jengo pay me if I could show prior art for CNAAME flattening? No, because it’s their patent.
Twirrim 3y ago
All major tech companies are building up a portfolio of patents, as a deterrent as much as anything else. So that when competitors come knocking on the door, they can use the portfolio to say, "Well okay, but then you owe me license money for $x, $y, $z from my portfolio, how about we just not bother with this, agreed?"

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 3y ago

Why should there be a mention about their patents?

creeble 3y ago
So that one can begin to judge how duplicitous their claims in defence of another's 'invalid' patent my be.
- patmcc 3y ago
  If Cloudflare starts trying to sue or shake down folks with their patents, this will be a very valid point. Until then it's a little silly; everybody holds patents for (at least) defensive reasons.
  - MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
    Exactly. As long as that's how the game is played you must play it or you will be sued out of existence.
  - creeble 3y ago
    But that’s generally where the trolls get their patents from - what were once large companies (like, in Cloudflare’s recent case, Caspian Networks). My point (if any) is that while we pat Cloudflare on the back for “taking down a troll”, they are complicit (as are many companies these days) in assisting the creation of future trolls who will mine their own, more general, perhaps “obvious to someone familiar with the art”, patents like CNAME flattening.
    - patmcc 3y ago
      Sure, but what's the solution (if you're Cloudflare)? You can patent CNAME flattening, only use it defensively, and maybe you eventually go bankrupt and someone scoops it up (not great). Or you can NOT patent it...and some troll probably will, and can now use it offensively. The solution is patent reform on this kind of obvious bullshit, but that's not something Cloudflare can solve.

empath-nirvana 3y ago

It's a defensive patent portfolio. They use it to counter sue if a competitor sues them.

EvanAnderson 3y ago
Edit: Removed a bone-headed hypothetical.
- brlewis 3y ago
  You lose a trademark if you don't defend it. I don't believe the same is true of patents.
  - EvanAnderson 3y ago
    My face is red. Thanks. I didn't stop and think long enough before I posted.
- toast0 3y ago
  > My understanding is a patent holder must defend their rights, if they are aware of the infringement, at the peril of losing them. Pretty sure that's just for trademarks.
  - EvanAnderson 3y ago
    Agh. Absolutely. Wrong flavor of "intellectual property". Thanks.
    - michael1999 3y ago
      And that's why Stallman is so firm that there is no such thing as "intellectual property". As soon as you start using that term, you start believing there is something more general and meaningful to it and start muddying the concepts. But it is just a mirage. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.en.html

rainsford 3y ago

I recognize my position is far from airtight, but I'm honestly way, way less bothered by the fact that companies like Cloudflare have a large patent portfolio simply because they actually build useful stuff related to their patents. There is a robust debate to be had on the validity of obvious or generic software patents that only questionably constitute legitimate "invention", but that's almost entirely separate from the problem of the bottom feeding pond scum that collect patents for no other reason than to attempt to enrich themselves via parasitic extraction from people who had similar ideas but actually used them to create something useful. The former might be trying to get exclusivity from something that anyone could have come up with, but at least their idea is useful to someone. The latter brings nothing of value to anyone except maybe themselves, and arguably negative value to everyone else.

djmips 3y ago
The real danger is if Cloudflare is threatened and on life support - does their culture maintain or what if it changes hands or fails completely and it's patent portfolio is acquired by litigious trolls.
- creeble 3y ago
  As happened to Caspian Networks in the current case. There is no resolution to the troll problem if you just keep playing the same game. So I’m not sure why we congratulate companies for “taking down trolls” when their own patent portfolio will (just as likely as not) add to the troll problem of the future. Would Project Jengo pay me if I could show prior art for CNAAME flattening? No, because it’s their patent.

Twirrim 3y ago

All major tech companies are building up a portfolio of patents, as a deterrent as much as anything else. So that when competitors come knocking on the door, they can use the portfolio to say, "Well okay, but then you owe me license money for $x, $y, $z from my portfolio, how about we just not bother with this, agreed?"