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No, it's not like that. I write excoriating pieces in the Times Higher, completely damning the UK university system as "unfit for teaching and leaning" [0], and

No, it's not like that. I write excoriating pieces in the Times Higher, completely damning the UK university system as "unfit for teaching and leaning" [0], and they still call me and ask "can you just cover this class?". Amusing as that desperation is, in a way it's more terrifying how the machinery of blind capitalism works. The system isn't capable of sentiment like that. They don't care what I say. It's just business. They're not there keeping a score of 'friends' and 'enemies'. Universities run on people like me who are of the "academic mindset", who can and will do things like teaching because we love it as a vocation even though the salary is a quarter or fifth of what is on offer privately. In the end, the only solution is to say no, even when you'd really like to do it. It's a weird modern tragedy. [0] https://cybershow.uk/blog/posts/cyber-education/ https://cybershow.uk/blog/posts/cyber-education/

robertlagrant 3y ago
> Universities run on people like me who are of the "academic mindset", who can and will do things like teaching because we love it as a vocation even though the salary is a quarter or fifth of what is on offer privately. Everything runs like this. Jobs people want will pay less than jobs people don't want.
- alan-hn 3y ago
  Does that mean everyone wants to be a waiter and nobody wants to be a CEO?
  - tristor 3y ago
    > Does that mean everyone wants to be a waiter and nobody wants to be a CEO? Unironically, yes. Most people don't have enough exposure to actually understand what the job of a CEO is. I have had that exposure, and I don't ever want to be the CEO of any sizeable company. Once you become CEO, work/life balance utterly ceases to exist, because you are the person imbued as the corporation, meaning you are literally always working, always on call, always stuck with the most difficult or intractable decisions where maybe all the options are wrong, and no matter your choice everyone will hate you. It's a terrible job that people only do because it pays so well. I am not the CEO but I'm much higher up the food chain today than I was when I started. I often reminisce fondly about my time working phone tech support, because I could work my queue and walk out without having to give any thought to anything that occurred that day. That's not the reality of being in any sort of management role, and the higher up you go the less that matches reality.
    - yen223 3y ago
      I have yet to see a CEO choose to go back down the food chain, even though that is something they have the power to do.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        CEOs of large companies generally don't go back down the food chain because they don't need to. They retire/semi-retire (e.g. get a board seat or some other advisor type of position) instead.
        HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
        The strongest factor in personal employment decisions is what we "need to". Of course a CEO doesn't need to continue pulling their weight when they have piles of cash to retire on.
        ghaff 3y ago
        As a CEO (or elite athlete, etc.) it can also be getting an even more prestigious role. But, yes, failing that it probably makes sense to drop the whole thing and just enjoy your piles of cash (which may or may not involve still doing some nominal work).
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        > The strongest factor in personal employment decisions is what we "need to". Possibly, but once that's satisfied, or even the satisfaction of that is well in the rear view mirror, other things become important. E.g. company mission; prestige; moving in the right circles; pushing into politics.
      - tristor 3y ago
        Typically the way it works is the comp structure is such that after a few years in the role you can semi-retire. The goal of anyone who is a CEO is to try throw their hat in the ring, hopefully do a good job, and then step away to help other people who want to be CEOs. Generally they do this by taking on board seats or becoming an investor. The average CEO tenure is 7 years and the median is 5 years[1]. This is not a job you can do for a long time without it basically killing you due to the stress. I'm sure you've seen all the before/after pictures they always do for POTUS. If you saw similar photos for folks becoming CEOs of a major company, you'd see a similar change. Being a CEO is a job that will literally run you ragged. It destroys your health, and is not something most people can tolerate for longer than a decade. [1]: https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2018/02/12/ceo-tenure-rates/ https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2018/02/12/ceo-tenure-rates/
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > Does that mean everyone wants to be a waiter and nobody wants to be a CEO? You've committed the fallacy of the single cause. A reason doesn't mean the reason for lower salaries.
    - alan-hn 3y ago
      Is it me committing the fallacy or am I responding to the fallacy?
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        Committing.
        alan-hn 3y ago
        Since I have to be explicit, I'm questioning the line of thinking that I'm responding to with my initial post in this thread. Perhaps you should go back and reread it.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        You're not being explicit. Saying "Go and re-read the thing you wrote" isn't being explicit. Two messages later and you haven't really said anything, other than that you somehow disagree. To be clear: where's the fallacy of the single cause in what I wrote earlier? It's clear in what you said: you misinterpreted my saying "desirable jobs pay less" as "jobs being desirable is the only cause of the market paying less for some jobs". A cause - from my message, vs the cause - the assumption in your response.
        alan-hn 3y ago
        Your statement implies that whether or not someone wants a job is a large deciding factor in the scale of pay, my point is that it is not. I was being explicit where I was telling you that I am in fact questioning your line of logic because it doesn't hold. Desirable jobs don't pay less than undesirable jobs. In a capitalist market things are set up so that there is a segment of the population who is desperate for money enough to do jobs that other people don't want regardless of pay. You have offered zero evidence for your original claim nor any supporting arguments that a job being less desirable somehow means it will pay more than a desirable job nor have you defined what makes jobs desirable or undesirable. Does high pay make a job desirable? Maybe to some people. You're applying a blanket statement to a heterogeneous population with nothing to back it up.

robertlagrant 3y ago

> Universities run on people like me who are of the "academic mindset", who can and will do things like teaching because we love it as a vocation even though the salary is a quarter or fifth of what is on offer privately. Everything runs like this. Jobs people want will pay less than jobs people don't want.

alan-hn 3y ago
Does that mean everyone wants to be a waiter and nobody wants to be a CEO?
- tristor 3y ago
  > Does that mean everyone wants to be a waiter and nobody wants to be a CEO? Unironically, yes. Most people don't have enough exposure to actually understand what the job of a CEO is. I have had that exposure, and I don't ever want to be the CEO of any sizeable company. Once you become CEO, work/life balance utterly ceases to exist, because you are the person imbued as the corporation, meaning you are literally always working, always on call, always stuck with the most difficult or intractable decisions where maybe all the options are wrong, and no matter your choice everyone will hate you. It's a terrible job that people only do because it pays so well. I am not the CEO but I'm much higher up the food chain today than I was when I started. I often reminisce fondly about my time working phone tech support, because I could work my queue and walk out without having to give any thought to anything that occurred that day. That's not the reality of being in any sort of management role, and the higher up you go the less that matches reality.
  - yen223 3y ago
    I have yet to see a CEO choose to go back down the food chain, even though that is something they have the power to do.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      CEOs of large companies generally don't go back down the food chain because they don't need to. They retire/semi-retire (e.g. get a board seat or some other advisor type of position) instead.
      - HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
        The strongest factor in personal employment decisions is what we "need to". Of course a CEO doesn't need to continue pulling their weight when they have piles of cash to retire on.
        ghaff 3y ago
        As a CEO (or elite athlete, etc.) it can also be getting an even more prestigious role. But, yes, failing that it probably makes sense to drop the whole thing and just enjoy your piles of cash (which may or may not involve still doing some nominal work).
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        > The strongest factor in personal employment decisions is what we "need to". Possibly, but once that's satisfied, or even the satisfaction of that is well in the rear view mirror, other things become important. E.g. company mission; prestige; moving in the right circles; pushing into politics.
    - tristor 3y ago
      Typically the way it works is the comp structure is such that after a few years in the role you can semi-retire. The goal of anyone who is a CEO is to try throw their hat in the ring, hopefully do a good job, and then step away to help other people who want to be CEOs. Generally they do this by taking on board seats or becoming an investor. The average CEO tenure is 7 years and the median is 5 years[1]. This is not a job you can do for a long time without it basically killing you due to the stress. I'm sure you've seen all the before/after pictures they always do for POTUS. If you saw similar photos for folks becoming CEOs of a major company, you'd see a similar change. Being a CEO is a job that will literally run you ragged. It destroys your health, and is not something most people can tolerate for longer than a decade. [1]: https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2018/02/12/ceo-tenure-rates/ https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2018/02/12/ceo-tenure-rates/
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > Does that mean everyone wants to be a waiter and nobody wants to be a CEO? You've committed the fallacy of the single cause. A reason doesn't mean the reason for lower salaries.
  - alan-hn 3y ago
    Is it me committing the fallacy or am I responding to the fallacy?
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Committing.
      - alan-hn 3y ago
        Since I have to be explicit, I'm questioning the line of thinking that I'm responding to with my initial post in this thread. Perhaps you should go back and reread it.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        You're not being explicit. Saying "Go and re-read the thing you wrote" isn't being explicit. Two messages later and you haven't really said anything, other than that you somehow disagree. To be clear: where's the fallacy of the single cause in what I wrote earlier? It's clear in what you said: you misinterpreted my saying "desirable jobs pay less" as "jobs being desirable is the only cause of the market paying less for some jobs". A cause - from my message, vs the cause - the assumption in your response.
        alan-hn 3y ago
        Your statement implies that whether or not someone wants a job is a large deciding factor in the scale of pay, my point is that it is not. I was being explicit where I was telling you that I am in fact questioning your line of logic because it doesn't hold. Desirable jobs don't pay less than undesirable jobs. In a capitalist market things are set up so that there is a segment of the population who is desperate for money enough to do jobs that other people don't want regardless of pay. You have offered zero evidence for your original claim nor any supporting arguments that a job being less desirable somehow means it will pay more than a desirable job nor have you defined what makes jobs desirable or undesirable. Does high pay make a job desirable? Maybe to some people. You're applying a blanket statement to a heterogeneous population with nothing to back it up.