5 ms·

Five years ago the Mister people were similarly unable to STFU about raspberry pi’s. Mister is still emulation, it still has tons of issues, and it’s still $70

by pbj1968 3y ago

Five years ago the Mister people were similarly unable to STFU about raspberry pi’s. Mister is still emulation, it still has tons of issues, and it’s still $700 invested before you’re actually playing games. Meanwhile we’re in a golden age of RGB mods, flash carts, and optical drive emulators for original hardware.

xqzv 3y ago
"FPGA is emulation" You can have any number of issues with Mister, but this is just flat out incorrect if you know the definition of either of those words.
- thehias 3y ago
  Of course Mister uses emulation - there are only few chips in older arcade boards that truly can be simulated in FPGA with circuit-accuracy. The Mister SNES core has less accuracy like the software emulator bsnes, not all game work or there a bugs - they still "emulate" the hardware how they interpret it. FPGA is just a different way of "hardware emulation" instead of traditional "software emulators". The only real advantage of FPGA compared to software is the improved latency.
  - vardump 3y ago
    An FPGA can be 100% hardware perfect with practically no extra processing cost. The potential is there, even if it's not initially exploited. CPU based emulation will require a fairly powerful CPU just to emulate SNES. It's pretty expensive to emulate hardware in 180-190 ns increments.
    - pclmulqdq 3y ago
      This isn't quite true - you lose some of the weird analog stuff that may have happened. On a well-designed board, though, you can get essentially perfect cycle-accurate reproduction.
  - scientist4397 3y ago
    Not only, the ability to replicate hardware allow to render some effects that can’t be render with software emulation. I’ll try to find the video I saw on YT explaining that point.
    - mutexjp 3y ago
      Perhaps you are referring to this video [0] by What's Ken Making which goes into detail about the advantages/disadvantages of both software and hardware emulation? At 13:43, he demonstrates a couple of snes games with effects that don't work well in software emulation (along with what the effects / game mechanics should be on original hardware). At 22:25 he shows these same games running on FPGAs (analogue pocket, mister) and behaving correctly, just like on original hardware. As an aside, if this isn't the one you were referring to, it's still an awesome video by an amazing creator; I'm a big fan of this stuff after discovering it on accident. He gives a nice introduction to FPGAs in this same video. [0] https://youtu.be/sMMiBEhnizE?si=E08sfoc--NlgiqGu&t=824 https://youtu.be/sMMiBEhnizE?si=E08sfoc--NlgiqGu&t=824
- chungy 3y ago
  > if you know the definition of either of those words Let's put that to the test, ok https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulate https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulate 1a: "to imitate by means of an emulator" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulator https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulator 2: "hardware or software that permits programs written for one computer to be run on another computer" Yup, FPGA recreating other hardware definitely fits the bill of emulation. Granted, Analogue has played up a marketing spin that boxes in "emulation" to mean "software running on some generic CPU" in order to claim "no emulation", but it's just marketing doing the work of marketing.
  - Gormo 3y ago
    > Yup, FPGA recreating other hardware definitely fits the bill of emulation. It really doesn't. The FPGA actually implements the target hardware, rather than using other hardware to produce equivalent behavior. That's not to say that no emulation is involved, as not all of the functionality is actually achieved through the FPGA, but where it is, it's perfectly valid to distinguish it from emulation.
    - cacois 3y ago
      So your argument is that its closer to virtualization, than to emulation?
      - Gormo 3y ago
        Not really. And I'm not sure the concept of virtualization makes sense when applied to hardware in the first place. The FPGA is actually implementing the hardware. It's like using a newly manufactured edition of the original.
        fourfour3 3y ago
        The FPGA is used to implement an approximation of the original hardware’s functionality - not a perfect clone of the original hardware itself, which means they have their own unique bugs and inaccuracies compared to the original designs. I think “emulation” fits as a reasonable description of this, personally - at least as something an average person will understand.
- jtvjan 3y ago
  They may have read this article written by Near arguing that FPGA-based products are still (hardware-based) emulation: https://archive.is/fWosI https://archive.is/fWosI It's a well-written article, and presents a balanced view. Its stance is against the idea that FPGA-based emulation is always better than CPU-based emulation.
  - pipes 3y ago
    That is a fantastic read. Thanks.
  - BearOso 3y ago
    There's no circuit-level reproduction happening anywhere yet, it's basically emulation with a hardware clock. Analogue and kevtris know that FPGA isn't magic. Rather than contribute to the knowledge pool, like the MiSTer project, they're being bad actors and trying to muddle the situation to make money off of it. Near was trying to clarify the situation, but now we see where good intentions gets you.
- armada651 3y ago
  The argument being made is that the distinction between an FPGA and CPU is irrelevant to determine whether something is emulation. An emulator accelerated by an FPGA is still an emulator and a CPU simulating a console at the circuit level is no different in accuracy than an FPGA doing the same thing. The main difference is the experience, where the FPGA can offer an experience closer to the original than a CPU running an operating system can, especially for older consoles. Not because of a difference in emulation accuracy, but because the user experience is different.
  - _factor 3y ago
    That’s just building a unit to spec using an fpga instead of a chip fab. If it’s a 1-1 copy, emulation would not appear to be the correct term. If I have a black box chip that takes in 3 bits and spits out 3 based on the input. If I make a bit perfect implement of it, but my chip has additional outputs that correspond to unused input, hence never used. Is it still considered emulation? It differs minimally in a negligible manner.
belthesar 3y ago
While I'm a strong supporter of your position that the MiSTer (and any FPGA console implementation) is still emulation, it's worthwhile to keep in mind that this will indeed be _a_ future for preservation (unsure about it being the only, and warmer to, but not sold on it being the best way). Original hardware is great, but it's getting older, and failing. The Super Nintendo / Super Famicom, for instance, uses a ceramic oscillator as a clock source for its sound processing unit, and as the console is designed, the sound clock is essential for keeping the entire system in sync. Members of the Tool Assisted Speedrunning community have been experimenting with parts replacements to resuscitate this clock source with only mixed successes. This is one of many pieces of silicon on these old platforms that will continue to fail as time goes on. We can't make brand new classic consoles because the parts are just unavailable, and the industry has a well trodden path of reimplementing discrete electronics in FPGA for decades now with great success. If your goal is to keep playing games for a while longer on your OG console, then heck yeah, go for it. It does indeed do the thing. But if we want to be able to preserve this history in as close to the original form factor and play environment as possible, then we have to explore other options, and FPGA system cloning is a grand way to do this.
- AlienRobot 3y ago
  I think the most worrying thing about emulating old consoles by reverse-engineering them is that you're running out of time to test it. Say for example that the original Luigi looks blue in the hardware it was made for, but in an emulator he looks green. If there are no original NES left, you will never be able to know the emulator's code doesn't match how the NES actually worked. From that point on, the emulator experience is as canonical as it gets.
  - incrudible 3y ago
    Different NES revisions actually output different colors. Plus, originally it's an RF signal, then composite. It was displayed on some CRT. It's possible to RGB mod an NES, but is that authentic? No. The one true color of Luigi is the one that you saw as a child on a sunday afternoon in the eighties. Lost in time, like tears in rain.
vardump 3y ago
My MiSTer FPGA was about $200 before I was playing games. $700 is either hyperbole or have DE10 Nano board prices really gone up THAT much? After DE10 Nano, you need just a RAM module and a I/O board and you're ready to go.
- jdboyd 3y ago
  The MSRP of the de10 nano is $225, but they are commonly out of stock still. The going price for a scalped de10 nano is over $300, so all is you are likely looking at $400 to $500. I kick myself often for not getting multiple de10 nanos earlier (there are more projects that used them than just mister).
  - vardump 3y ago
    Just tried from Terasic website. Tried to order two for $225 each, they seemed to be available. That said, the price has almost doubled in a few years...

xqzv 3y ago

"FPGA is emulation" You can have any number of issues with Mister, but this is just flat out incorrect if you know the definition of either of those words.

thehias 3y ago
Of course Mister uses emulation - there are only few chips in older arcade boards that truly can be simulated in FPGA with circuit-accuracy. The Mister SNES core has less accuracy like the software emulator bsnes, not all game work or there a bugs - they still "emulate" the hardware how they interpret it. FPGA is just a different way of "hardware emulation" instead of traditional "software emulators". The only real advantage of FPGA compared to software is the improved latency.
- vardump 3y ago
  An FPGA can be 100% hardware perfect with practically no extra processing cost. The potential is there, even if it's not initially exploited. CPU based emulation will require a fairly powerful CPU just to emulate SNES. It's pretty expensive to emulate hardware in 180-190 ns increments.
  - pclmulqdq 3y ago
    This isn't quite true - you lose some of the weird analog stuff that may have happened. On a well-designed board, though, you can get essentially perfect cycle-accurate reproduction.
- scientist4397 3y ago
  Not only, the ability to replicate hardware allow to render some effects that can’t be render with software emulation. I’ll try to find the video I saw on YT explaining that point.
  - mutexjp 3y ago
    Perhaps you are referring to this video [0] by What's Ken Making which goes into detail about the advantages/disadvantages of both software and hardware emulation? At 13:43, he demonstrates a couple of snes games with effects that don't work well in software emulation (along with what the effects / game mechanics should be on original hardware). At 22:25 he shows these same games running on FPGAs (analogue pocket, mister) and behaving correctly, just like on original hardware. As an aside, if this isn't the one you were referring to, it's still an awesome video by an amazing creator; I'm a big fan of this stuff after discovering it on accident. He gives a nice introduction to FPGAs in this same video. [0] https://youtu.be/sMMiBEhnizE?si=E08sfoc--NlgiqGu&t=824 https://youtu.be/sMMiBEhnizE?si=E08sfoc--NlgiqGu&t=824
chungy 3y ago
> if you know the definition of either of those words Let's put that to the test, ok https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulate https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulate 1a: "to imitate by means of an emulator" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulator https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulator 2: "hardware or software that permits programs written for one computer to be run on another computer" Yup, FPGA recreating other hardware definitely fits the bill of emulation. Granted, Analogue has played up a marketing spin that boxes in "emulation" to mean "software running on some generic CPU" in order to claim "no emulation", but it's just marketing doing the work of marketing.
- Gormo 3y ago
  > Yup, FPGA recreating other hardware definitely fits the bill of emulation. It really doesn't. The FPGA actually implements the target hardware, rather than using other hardware to produce equivalent behavior. That's not to say that no emulation is involved, as not all of the functionality is actually achieved through the FPGA, but where it is, it's perfectly valid to distinguish it from emulation.
  - cacois 3y ago
    So your argument is that its closer to virtualization, than to emulation?
    - Gormo 3y ago
      Not really. And I'm not sure the concept of virtualization makes sense when applied to hardware in the first place. The FPGA is actually implementing the hardware. It's like using a newly manufactured edition of the original.
      - fourfour3 3y ago
        The FPGA is used to implement an approximation of the original hardware’s functionality - not a perfect clone of the original hardware itself, which means they have their own unique bugs and inaccuracies compared to the original designs. I think “emulation” fits as a reasonable description of this, personally - at least as something an average person will understand.
jtvjan 3y ago
They may have read this article written by Near arguing that FPGA-based products are still (hardware-based) emulation: https://archive.is/fWosI https://archive.is/fWosI It's a well-written article, and presents a balanced view. Its stance is against the idea that FPGA-based emulation is always better than CPU-based emulation.
- pipes 3y ago
  That is a fantastic read. Thanks.
- BearOso 3y ago
  There's no circuit-level reproduction happening anywhere yet, it's basically emulation with a hardware clock. Analogue and kevtris know that FPGA isn't magic. Rather than contribute to the knowledge pool, like the MiSTer project, they're being bad actors and trying to muddle the situation to make money off of it. Near was trying to clarify the situation, but now we see where good intentions gets you.
armada651 3y ago
The argument being made is that the distinction between an FPGA and CPU is irrelevant to determine whether something is emulation. An emulator accelerated by an FPGA is still an emulator and a CPU simulating a console at the circuit level is no different in accuracy than an FPGA doing the same thing. The main difference is the experience, where the FPGA can offer an experience closer to the original than a CPU running an operating system can, especially for older consoles. Not because of a difference in emulation accuracy, but because the user experience is different.
- _factor 3y ago
  That’s just building a unit to spec using an fpga instead of a chip fab. If it’s a 1-1 copy, emulation would not appear to be the correct term. If I have a black box chip that takes in 3 bits and spits out 3 based on the input. If I make a bit perfect implement of it, but my chip has additional outputs that correspond to unused input, hence never used. Is it still considered emulation? It differs minimally in a negligible manner.

belthesar 3y ago

While I'm a strong supporter of your position that the MiSTer (and any FPGA console implementation) is still emulation, it's worthwhile to keep in mind that this will indeed be _a_ future for preservation (unsure about it being the only, and warmer to, but not sold on it being the best way). Original hardware is great, but it's getting older, and failing. The Super Nintendo / Super Famicom, for instance, uses a ceramic oscillator as a clock source for its sound processing unit, and as the console is designed, the sound clock is essential for keeping the entire system in sync. Members of the Tool Assisted Speedrunning community have been experimenting with parts replacements to resuscitate this clock source with only mixed successes. This is one of many pieces of silicon on these old platforms that will continue to fail as time goes on. We can't make brand new classic consoles because the parts are just unavailable, and the industry has a well trodden path of reimplementing discrete electronics in FPGA for decades now with great success. If your goal is to keep playing games for a while longer on your OG console, then heck yeah, go for it. It does indeed do the thing. But if we want to be able to preserve this history in as close to the original form factor and play environment as possible, then we have to explore other options, and FPGA system cloning is a grand way to do this.

AlienRobot 3y ago
I think the most worrying thing about emulating old consoles by reverse-engineering them is that you're running out of time to test it. Say for example that the original Luigi looks blue in the hardware it was made for, but in an emulator he looks green. If there are no original NES left, you will never be able to know the emulator's code doesn't match how the NES actually worked. From that point on, the emulator experience is as canonical as it gets.
- incrudible 3y ago
  Different NES revisions actually output different colors. Plus, originally it's an RF signal, then composite. It was displayed on some CRT. It's possible to RGB mod an NES, but is that authentic? No. The one true color of Luigi is the one that you saw as a child on a sunday afternoon in the eighties. Lost in time, like tears in rain.

vardump 3y ago

My MiSTer FPGA was about $200 before I was playing games. $700 is either hyperbole or have DE10 Nano board prices really gone up THAT much? After DE10 Nano, you need just a RAM module and a I/O board and you're ready to go.

jdboyd 3y ago
The MSRP of the de10 nano is $225, but they are commonly out of stock still. The going price for a scalped de10 nano is over $300, so all is you are likely looking at $400 to $500. I kick myself often for not getting multiple de10 nanos earlier (there are more projects that used them than just mister).
- vardump 3y ago
  Just tried from Terasic website. Tried to order two for $225 each, they seemed to be available. That said, the price has almost doubled in a few years...