3 ms·

When it is actual theft why the owners/authors of said theft are not charged criminally? Why laws are asymmetric? When Hertz complains about car theft while the

by FpUser 3y ago

When it is actual theft why the owners/authors of said theft are not charged criminally? Why laws are asymmetric? When Hertz complains about car theft while there is none the renters are getting charged.

vundercind 3y ago
The answer is in the name of our economic system: Capital -ism. We basically put a big flashing sign right out front saying whose interests are the top priority.
- Philorandroid 3y ago
  That's such a yellow-press non-answer. Annoyed interpretations of the name of something doesn't offer any insight into, or affect the reality of, the thing.
  - vundercind 3y ago
    I think it’s interesting that the labeling and the observed behavior of the system really do match.
    - Philorandroid 3y ago
      Again, you've made no claims, only voiced vague notions of your distaste
      - vundercind 3y ago
        I claim that the name “capitalism” states whose interests are favored in our system. That’s a claim, and it’s not vague. Also I didn’t voice distaste.
        Philorandroid 3y ago
        It's hard to interpret "We basically put a big flashing sign right out front saying whose interests are the top priority" as anything but distaste, just as it's hard to parse "the name “capitalism” states whose interests are favored in our system" as anything but a favorable verisimilitude. Whose capital? Construction contractors? Service industry bosses? How exactly are they favored? Clearly wage theft is a well-understood phenomenon, so wouldn't it be a greater indictment of the legal system backing the law than the system that rests on top of it? How is any of this unique to a capitalist system and prevented in, say, command economies?
        vundercind 3y ago
        > How is any of this unique to a capitalist system and prevented in, say, command economies? Social-capitalist economies (the “social democracies” and adjacent) tend to do better job at this particular thing. Unions are pretty damn effective at cutting down on employers failing to follow through on their obligations, for one thing, and other states do a better job of supporting and incubating those organizations, besides whatever else they do in statute and enforcement to curb the power of capital to behave poorly. The US tends to center its capitalist nature more than other states, is why I suggested we wear it rather “on our sleeve”. “Why does this liquid taste like apples?” “My brother in Christ: the label reads ‘Apple Juice’”
        CaptainFever 3y ago
        (Not GP) I think this is fair enough of an answer, I agree with you. Though, when complaining about capitalism to try to improve it, it is probably best to mention social-capitalism as what you are advocating for. Due to the recent political climate (e.g. the Russian invasion) communists are also complaining about capitalism on online forums as a way to advocate for it, which I believe is why GP thought you were talking about command economies. I thought so, too.
        vundercind 3y ago
        Ah, fair point. The most extreme ideology I even kind of identify with is left-libertarianism, for the record, and mostly I’d just like a better social safety net, better social services, better consumer protection (this, overall, helps the market! Markets are pretty awesome and we definitely should work to keep them healthy and helpful) and stronger unions. I reckon that’s about as good as a large state can get, in the current environment. I get the communism association given the origin of the term “capitalism”, though it’s been pretty thoroughly adopted and embraced by, well, capitalists. But no, I’m not a fan of communism and didn’t mean to give that impression. In a world where political labelling can be so very misleading (“people’s democratic republic”) I just find it a bit amusing, and maybe even refreshing, that we tend to self-label our system as capitalist (among other things, to be fair) and that’s pretty damn honest. Take the term fairly literally and it’s a good guide to what you see actually happening, and what you ought to try to do to attain greater privileges and protections. We announce exactly what our deal is. [edit] more to the point, I wasn’t even trying to get into a what’s-better discussion, just pointing out that thing from the last paragraph, really.
Jensson 3y ago
Refusing to pay your bills is treated the same for private persons, you just don't call that rent theft. Calling being late with a payment theft doesn't make it theft. I am very happy that I don't get treated like a criminal just because I forgot to pay a bill, I don't see why companies should be treated differently.
- MeImCounting 3y ago
  Again, we are not talking about "late checks" here. Say youre renting an apartment. It costs 3000 a month but you only pay 2500 a month. Is that ok? Should you be allowed to live in that apartment?
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  You're all over this thread trying to miscategorize wage theft as "paying a bill late". It's not. It's systematically _not ever_ paying monies owed, on an ongoing basis. And given the number of interactions you've had on this where this has been explained, it seems to be deliberately obtuse on your part by now. This in between you trying to describe it as a small, almost non-existent problem, and when it does happen, it's non-profitable small businesses just struggling to keep the lights on. Very hard to assume good faith here.
- FpUser 3y ago
  I am all for fairness. Then explain why people are being criminally charged for car theft when there is none. It was malicious reporting with the purpose of settling later. Meanwhile no one at Hertz is currently facing criminal penalties for initiating the false arrests with law enforcement. >"I don't see why companies should be treated differently." In this case I'd love people to get away with fraud / theft / etc. After all big companies commit it left and right and gets away with it.

by FpUser 3y ago

vundercind 3y ago

The answer is in the name of our economic system: Capital -ism. We basically put a big flashing sign right out front saying whose interests are the top priority.

Philorandroid 3y ago
That's such a yellow-press non-answer. Annoyed interpretations of the name of something doesn't offer any insight into, or affect the reality of, the thing.
- vundercind 3y ago
  I think it’s interesting that the labeling and the observed behavior of the system really do match.
  - Philorandroid 3y ago
    Again, you've made no claims, only voiced vague notions of your distaste
    - vundercind 3y ago
      I claim that the name “capitalism” states whose interests are favored in our system. That’s a claim, and it’s not vague. Also I didn’t voice distaste.
      - Philorandroid 3y ago
        It's hard to interpret "We basically put a big flashing sign right out front saying whose interests are the top priority" as anything but distaste, just as it's hard to parse "the name “capitalism” states whose interests are favored in our system" as anything but a favorable verisimilitude. Whose capital? Construction contractors? Service industry bosses? How exactly are they favored? Clearly wage theft is a well-understood phenomenon, so wouldn't it be a greater indictment of the legal system backing the law than the system that rests on top of it? How is any of this unique to a capitalist system and prevented in, say, command economies?
        vundercind 3y ago
        > How is any of this unique to a capitalist system and prevented in, say, command economies? Social-capitalist economies (the “social democracies” and adjacent) tend to do better job at this particular thing. Unions are pretty damn effective at cutting down on employers failing to follow through on their obligations, for one thing, and other states do a better job of supporting and incubating those organizations, besides whatever else they do in statute and enforcement to curb the power of capital to behave poorly. The US tends to center its capitalist nature more than other states, is why I suggested we wear it rather “on our sleeve”. “Why does this liquid taste like apples?” “My brother in Christ: the label reads ‘Apple Juice’”
        CaptainFever 3y ago
        (Not GP) I think this is fair enough of an answer, I agree with you. Though, when complaining about capitalism to try to improve it, it is probably best to mention social-capitalism as what you are advocating for. Due to the recent political climate (e.g. the Russian invasion) communists are also complaining about capitalism on online forums as a way to advocate for it, which I believe is why GP thought you were talking about command economies. I thought so, too.
        vundercind 3y ago
        Ah, fair point. The most extreme ideology I even kind of identify with is left-libertarianism, for the record, and mostly I’d just like a better social safety net, better social services, better consumer protection (this, overall, helps the market! Markets are pretty awesome and we definitely should work to keep them healthy and helpful) and stronger unions. I reckon that’s about as good as a large state can get, in the current environment. I get the communism association given the origin of the term “capitalism”, though it’s been pretty thoroughly adopted and embraced by, well, capitalists. But no, I’m not a fan of communism and didn’t mean to give that impression. In a world where political labelling can be so very misleading (“people’s democratic republic”) I just find it a bit amusing, and maybe even refreshing, that we tend to self-label our system as capitalist (among other things, to be fair) and that’s pretty damn honest. Take the term fairly literally and it’s a good guide to what you see actually happening, and what you ought to try to do to attain greater privileges and protections. We announce exactly what our deal is. [edit] more to the point, I wasn’t even trying to get into a what’s-better discussion, just pointing out that thing from the last paragraph, really.

Jensson 3y ago

Refusing to pay your bills is treated the same for private persons, you just don't call that rent theft. Calling being late with a payment theft doesn't make it theft. I am very happy that I don't get treated like a criminal just because I forgot to pay a bill, I don't see why companies should be treated differently.

MeImCounting 3y ago
Again, we are not talking about "late checks" here. Say youre renting an apartment. It costs 3000 a month but you only pay 2500 a month. Is that ok? Should you be allowed to live in that apartment?
FireBeyond 3y ago
You're all over this thread trying to miscategorize wage theft as "paying a bill late". It's not. It's systematically _not ever_ paying monies owed, on an ongoing basis. And given the number of interactions you've had on this where this has been explained, it seems to be deliberately obtuse on your part by now. This in between you trying to describe it as a small, almost non-existent problem, and when it does happen, it's non-profitable small businesses just struggling to keep the lights on. Very hard to assume good faith here.
FpUser 3y ago
I am all for fairness. Then explain why people are being criminally charged for car theft when there is none. It was malicious reporting with the purpose of settling later. Meanwhile no one at Hertz is currently facing criminal penalties for initiating the false arrests with law enforcement. >"I don't see why companies should be treated differently." In this case I'd love people to get away with fraud / theft / etc. After all big companies commit it left and right and gets away with it.