5 ms·

In defense of the ambiguity of digital toggles, I’d like to add that this is unsolved on most, if not all, physical light switches in homes and offices. Despit

In defense of the ambiguity of digital toggles, I’d like to add that this is unsolved on most, if not all, physical light switches in homes and offices. Despite having existed for more than 50 years and most people are using multiple toggles a day with its labels, most people are unaware of the meaning of power symbol (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_symbol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_symbol)

master-lincoln 3y ago
Really? For me this always made intuitive sense reading it as one and zero, where zero would be off.
- wodenokoto 3y ago
  You probably also work in IT and might even now what binary is not to mention what boolean means.
  - master-lincoln 3y ago
    fair point
- CalRobert 3y ago
  It always seemed backwards to me, since a circle should represent a closed circuit
  - lupire 3y ago
    An open circuit would then be a C not a |
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      Those wouldn't be easily distinguishable though.
- kragen 3y ago
  this is backwards from the perspective of digital logic circuits physical light switches toggle between closed-circuit and open-circuit, not high and low voltage levels. 'on', where current can flow, is a closed circuit; 'off' is an open circuit in digital logic, when there is a correspondence between closed/open and high/low, the correspondence is virtually always that closed is low and high is open. for example: ttl inputs always treat open-circuit as high; the can bus and i²c bus "recessive" states (when nobody is transmitting) are high; avrs have optional pullup resistors on their gpios but no optional pulldowns, so if you want to connect a pushbutton or toggle switch to a gpio, you have to connect it between the pin and ground, not between the pin and vcc; 8051s' 'quasi-bidirectional' i/o ports similarly feature a weak pullup and a strong pulldown, so that, again, an open circuit is a logic high level (and normally high is 1, low is 0, though sometimes this convention is also violated) the only exception i know of is that 60-milliamp and 20-milliamp digital current loop interfaces, as used on teletypes, treat a closed circuit (current flowing) as a logic 1 ('mark'), and an open circuit (no current flowing) as a logic 0 ('space') incidentally, 'closed circuit' and 'open circuit' are also confusing. a closed circuit is 'closed' in the sense that a plane curve is 'closed' if it divides the plane into an inside and an outside region. on a closed curve, you can walk around the whole circuit and return to your starting point without turning around, which is in some sense what the electrical current is doing. but of course actual electrical circuits exist in three-dimensional space, where a 'closed' curve does not divide space into an inside and an outside region, because you need a surface for that. and in all other contexts, something that is 'closed' is something that does not permit flow: a closed barn door, a closed window, a closed valve, etc. nevertheless, it is far too late to eliminate this two-dimensional flatland thinking from our vocabulary
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    Oh, of course that must be what closed circuit meant. For some reason I just thought “looks like the switches are little doors, like in a floor plan, and they are all closed now” and I never examined it.
    - kragen 3y ago
      happy to help :)
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Most people haven't even heard of binary.
  - jodrellblank 3y ago
    Silicate chemistry is second nature to us geochemists, so it's easy to forget that the average person probably only knows the formulas for olivine and one or two feldspars. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2501:_Average_Familiarity https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2501:_Average_Fam... See also this comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39344935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39344935 ) "it's pretty obvious" that computers use the opposite symbol than the name says.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Yes indeed. I need to explain to IT people that most users don't even understand hierarchical folder structures; many don't understand folders. They don't believe me. [Edit: deleted possibly rude paragraph]
gsich 3y ago
People are aware.
NeoTar 3y ago
Isn't that a feature and not a bug for light switches? It's not uncommon to have multiple light switches control a single light socket - switching any of them changes the state of the light, therefore you cannot consistently say state-x = light on, state-y = light-off.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
marginalia_nu 3y ago
Because language works through association and analogy, you don't actually need to know the etymology of a word or symbol to use or understand it. Any English speaker can understand perfectly well the words manual, manufacture and manicure without ever reflecting on the fact that "manus" in latin means "hand". We clearly haven't needed to rename these words "handual", "handufacture" and "handicure" for these concepts to be understood by people who aren't fluent in Latin. In much the same way, even a person who has never seen a floppy disk will associate its likeness with the action of saving if it appears next to enough save buttons.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > you don't actually need to know the etymology of a word or symbol to use or understand it. Etymology, etc. helps to understand what other people mean and have meant by the word, and what others will understand.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    No, it doesn't?
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Well, in this case, if one person says it does, and another doesn't see that it does, shouldn't the latter conclude they are likely missing something? If I say 'this truck hauls 2 tons up Mount Rainier' and evidently I do that, and you don't think so, wouldn't the rational conclusion be that the truck does it and you were unaware? I and many others, for centuries, have used etymology to understand meaning and history. Don't tell me it doesn't work - I do it, just like driving that truck. You can't do everything, we all miss out on most things, but you are missing out! :)
      - thaumasiotes 3y ago
        > in this case, if one person says it does, and another doesn't see that it does, shouldn't the latter conclude they are likely missing something? In this case, we already have all the facts, so there's no reason to talk about what's likely. Etymology is not informative as to meaning, and therefore cannot help anyone learn how a word is currently used. You are advocating for the Etymological Fallacy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy ), but the name of the position you're taking should be a hint about whether it's actually a valid viewpoint.
btbuildem 3y ago
While the NEC does not specify light switch toggle orientation, there seems to be a general convention among electricians and installers for the toggle switch to be positioned up for "on" and down for "off."
- ComputerGuru 3y ago
  Yes, until you throw a second switch in the same circuit. Then you’ll never know.
- Austizzle 3y ago
  In the United States at least. I spent a few years in Australia and it was universally the opposite!
thaumasiotes 3y ago
> In defense of the ambiguity of digital toggles, I’d like to add that this is unsolved on most, if not all, physical light switches in homes and offices. What? This has been solved for physical light switches since before physical light switches existed. If the light is on, the switch is set to "light on". If the light is off, the switch is set to "light off".

master-lincoln 3y ago

Really? For me this always made intuitive sense reading it as one and zero, where zero would be off.

wodenokoto 3y ago
You probably also work in IT and might even now what binary is not to mention what boolean means.
- master-lincoln 3y ago
  fair point
CalRobert 3y ago
It always seemed backwards to me, since a circle should represent a closed circuit
- lupire 3y ago
  An open circuit would then be a C not a |
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    Those wouldn't be easily distinguishable though.
kragen 3y ago
this is backwards from the perspective of digital logic circuits physical light switches toggle between closed-circuit and open-circuit, not high and low voltage levels. 'on', where current can flow, is a closed circuit; 'off' is an open circuit in digital logic, when there is a correspondence between closed/open and high/low, the correspondence is virtually always that closed is low and high is open. for example: ttl inputs always treat open-circuit as high; the can bus and i²c bus "recessive" states (when nobody is transmitting) are high; avrs have optional pullup resistors on their gpios but no optional pulldowns, so if you want to connect a pushbutton or toggle switch to a gpio, you have to connect it between the pin and ground, not between the pin and vcc; 8051s' 'quasi-bidirectional' i/o ports similarly feature a weak pullup and a strong pulldown, so that, again, an open circuit is a logic high level (and normally high is 1, low is 0, though sometimes this convention is also violated) the only exception i know of is that 60-milliamp and 20-milliamp digital current loop interfaces, as used on teletypes, treat a closed circuit (current flowing) as a logic 1 ('mark'), and an open circuit (no current flowing) as a logic 0 ('space') incidentally, 'closed circuit' and 'open circuit' are also confusing. a closed circuit is 'closed' in the sense that a plane curve is 'closed' if it divides the plane into an inside and an outside region. on a closed curve, you can walk around the whole circuit and return to your starting point without turning around, which is in some sense what the electrical current is doing. but of course actual electrical circuits exist in three-dimensional space, where a 'closed' curve does not divide space into an inside and an outside region, because you need a surface for that. and in all other contexts, something that is 'closed' is something that does not permit flow: a closed barn door, a closed window, a closed valve, etc. nevertheless, it is far too late to eliminate this two-dimensional flatland thinking from our vocabulary
- bee_rider 3y ago
  Oh, of course that must be what closed circuit meant. For some reason I just thought “looks like the switches are little doors, like in a floor plan, and they are all closed now” and I never examined it.
  - kragen 3y ago
    happy to help :)
wolverine876 3y ago
Most people haven't even heard of binary.
- jodrellblank 3y ago
  Silicate chemistry is second nature to us geochemists, so it's easy to forget that the average person probably only knows the formulas for olivine and one or two feldspars. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2501:_Average_Familiarity https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2501:_Average_Fam... See also this comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39344935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39344935 ) "it's pretty obvious" that computers use the opposite symbol than the name says.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Yes indeed. I need to explain to IT people that most users don't even understand hierarchical folder structures; many don't understand folders. They don't believe me. [Edit: deleted possibly rude paragraph]

gsich 3y ago

People are aware.

NeoTar 3y ago

Isn't that a feature and not a bug for light switches? It's not uncommon to have multiple light switches control a single light socket - switching any of them changes the state of the light, therefore you cannot consistently say state-x = light on, state-y = light-off.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

marginalia_nu 3y ago

Because language works through association and analogy, you don't actually need to know the etymology of a word or symbol to use or understand it. Any English speaker can understand perfectly well the words manual, manufacture and manicure without ever reflecting on the fact that "manus" in latin means "hand". We clearly haven't needed to rename these words "handual", "handufacture" and "handicure" for these concepts to be understood by people who aren't fluent in Latin. In much the same way, even a person who has never seen a floppy disk will associate its likeness with the action of saving if it appears next to enough save buttons.

wolverine876 3y ago
> you don't actually need to know the etymology of a word or symbol to use or understand it. Etymology, etc. helps to understand what other people mean and have meant by the word, and what others will understand.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  No, it doesn't?
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Well, in this case, if one person says it does, and another doesn't see that it does, shouldn't the latter conclude they are likely missing something? If I say 'this truck hauls 2 tons up Mount Rainier' and evidently I do that, and you don't think so, wouldn't the rational conclusion be that the truck does it and you were unaware? I and many others, for centuries, have used etymology to understand meaning and history. Don't tell me it doesn't work - I do it, just like driving that truck. You can't do everything, we all miss out on most things, but you are missing out! :)
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      > in this case, if one person says it does, and another doesn't see that it does, shouldn't the latter conclude they are likely missing something? In this case, we already have all the facts, so there's no reason to talk about what's likely. Etymology is not informative as to meaning, and therefore cannot help anyone learn how a word is currently used. You are advocating for the Etymological Fallacy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy ), but the name of the position you're taking should be a hint about whether it's actually a valid viewpoint.

btbuildem 3y ago

While the NEC does not specify light switch toggle orientation, there seems to be a general convention among electricians and installers for the toggle switch to be positioned up for "on" and down for "off."

ComputerGuru 3y ago
Yes, until you throw a second switch in the same circuit. Then you’ll never know.
Austizzle 3y ago
In the United States at least. I spent a few years in Australia and it was universally the opposite!

thaumasiotes 3y ago

> In defense of the ambiguity of digital toggles, I’d like to add that this is unsolved on most, if not all, physical light switches in homes and offices. What? This has been solved for physical light switches since before physical light switches existed. If the light is on, the switch is set to "light on". If the light is off, the switch is set to "light off".