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> Give me a phone with a proper usb port, a couple sim cards, an SD slot, a replaceable battery and a headphone jack. I couldn't possibly care any less about ma

> Give me a phone with a proper usb port, a couple sim cards, an SD slot, a replaceable battery and a headphone jack. I couldn't possibly care any less about making it any thinner. It's going into a protective case anyway. Almost nobody wants this phone. Sure you'll get cheered on by some small group of people that wouldn't actually buy this phone either, but it just wouldn't sell well enough to justify its existence. There's probably already a phone with most of these features.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
matly 3y ago
You'd be surprised about the amount of people wanting this kind of smartphone. The success of Framework, who are doing something similar in the Laptop world, could be a robust indicator for the demand. Especially the replaceable battery is something we really should get back to IMHO.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  The “success” of Framework? By what metric are you defining success?
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    They employ 45 people and demand for their products is outpacing supply. Assuming they're at least breaking even, that's success.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      It's a success in this niche space. Just like there are niche smartphones providing all those features.
      - dns_snek 3y ago
        Could you please name these smartphones that run a modern version of Android, have modern hardware, and various niche features?
        The_Colonel 3y ago
        Samsung XCover 6 Pro, Fairphone 5.
graemep 3y ago
> Almost nobody wants this phone. Evidence? > Sure you'll get cheered on by some small group of people that wouldn't actually buy this phone either So all the people who say they want a phone like that are lying?
- krisoft 3y ago
  > So all the people who say they want a phone like that are lying? They are not lying. Just there aren't enough of them to make such a phone worth producing.
- acdha 3y ago
  Those features describe the average Android phone on the market until the mid-2010s. If there was popular demand, you’d expect the models which continued to have things like headphone jacks to sell well enough that someone would keep making them, but that just hasn’t been the case. This suggests that however genuine the desire is, it’s just not widely shared enough to actually constitute a viable market – somewhere below the level of, say, manual transmissions on cars.
  - graemep 3y ago
    Or it demonstrates a lack of competition in the market which allows a handful of big manufacturers, who have similar incentives to cut costs, to make the same decision to cut costs - lots of small reductions lead to a relatively big total increase in margins. In terms of wh.at actually gets marketed to most consumers choice is quite limited I do have a phone that is about two years old that has a headphone jack. Replaceable batteries and lack of SD card slots is essential deliberately shortening the life of phones to get people to upgrade sooner.
    - fkyoureadthedoc 3y ago
      Batteries are replaceable, just not by you. Do some people replace their phone when the battery sucks? Sure, maybe. But then that phone probably gets refurbished for someone else to buy. The main use of user replaceable batteries for me was always when my phone only lasted a few hours so I had to swap another one. My Samsung Blackjack with 3G would die in like an hour if I was actively using the 3g connection lol. G1 and HTC Evo also didn't last a whole shift at work.
sandworm101 3y ago
Well, someone wants these features enough that many will soon be mandatory. USB port = Mandated in the EU by end of 2024. Replaceable battery = Mandated in EU by 2027. Dual sim cards = common in the global south. Headphone jack = wanted by everyone not a youtube influencer. Compromise: I'll accept TWO USB-C ports in exchange for the headphone jack. Usb to 3.5mm adapter wires cost maybe 6$ on amazon.
- aceazzameen 3y ago
  My next phone will be an imported EU phone. I won't even care if it doesn't connect to cell towers (it will though).
- rrdharan 3y ago
  I’m not a YouTube influencer and I don’t want a headphone jack. I haven’t used wired headphones in five years.
- neoberg 3y ago
  Other features you mentioned maybe but no one cares about the headphone jack anymore. I don't remember most people using it a lot even before it started to disappear.
  - sandworm101 3y ago
    I have bought maybe ten usb-to-3.5mm adapters in recent years. I keep giving them away. Last time I went on a work trip (military) I gave away two sets of cheap wired headphones+adapters to kids whose bluetooth headsets had stopped working during long plane/bus rides. (19yo = kid) I'm not kidding when I say I recently saw someone on a plane using a wireless charging station. They had wrapped tape around the phone to hold it on the charger. Progress!
    - Kon-Peki 3y ago
      Have you found good adapters (or ones to avoid)? I've been using the same $9 Apple one for 3+ years at this point. There have been times when I've pulled it out of my bag and saved the day. Young people are amazed that it just works (microphone and all), Mac or Windows, computer or tablet. Ain't progress wonderful?
TeMPOraL 3y ago
Key part of GP's comment: > It's going into a protective case anyway. With that in mind, it seems it's not really customers that want ever thinner, ever more sealed and port-free phones. The very first purchase they make after buying a new phone already defeats the purported benefits of those design choices. I maintain this market is supplier-driven, and customer preferences have near-zero bearing on how phones look like today.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > The very first purchase they make after buying a new phone already defeats the purported benefits of those design choices. While protective cases make the phones marginally thicker they don't make them less water proof. Which is in my opinion the purpose of making phones sealed and as port-free as possible. And even with the protective case my current phone is much thinner than any phone I had with a user replaceable battery.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    That may be a justification, but IMHO not the actual reason. It's about cost cutting, improving reliability, making space for more marketable features like camera and battery. BTW, Samsung Galaxy S5 had all those features, even replaceable battery and was still waterproof.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  The question of "what people want" is fascinating. Like forever, some of the smartest people around admitted that they did not know. They created the entire field of market research. Today I think that is dead. In the past decade we moved to an entirely different model of force-fed consumerism, which is driven, as you say, entirely by the supply side. Oddly the near communist era uniformity we see goes against our stated beliefs in data-driven, targeted markets. A whole other layer is how we increasingly project our own desires onto others and assume they must be crazy not to want the exact same thing as ourselves. Where does that come from? Here on HN I get tired of hearing these very strident, cock-sure remarks about "what people want is...". Let's just admit we don't have much idea about what other people want. There's nowt as queer as folk. And some of the most interesting markets may in fact be marginal. Smaller markets do not mean unprofitable ones.
globular-toast 3y ago
Sony has somehow made it work (except the replaceable battery). I think the only thing they've got rid of recently is the notification LED. It doesn't help when a very large number of phone users only care about one thing: it being an Apple phone. They will lap up anything Apple gives them every single time. It doesn't matter what the features are.
- acdha 3y ago
  > It doesn't matter what the features are. What is more likely: that millions of people spend money on something they use constantly without caring whether it’s actually good, or that your emotional attachment to Android has caused you not to reconsider whether your tastes are in fact universally shared? Any time you see billions of dollars changing hands for years in a competitive market but don’t understand why, the answer is always to learn more about it.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > They will lap up anything Apple gives them every single time. It doesn't matter what the features are. Or, Apple actually makes well made good phones which people find desirable? I understand it is popular to talk trash about them, but maybe their popularity is not all just a product of misguided masses?
- fkyoureadthedoc 3y ago
  > Sony has somehow made it work And yet every post about phones there's people acting like no phones that meet their requirements exist. They definitely exist. I think what they really intend to say is "Why doesn't Samsung put these exact features I want on the Galaxy S Whatever"
  - globular-toast 3y ago
    Yes. iPhone users in particular don't even know about Android. There are two phone manufacturers: Apple and Samsung.
brnaftr361 3y ago
I think there are actually a lot of demands that are unserviced in the phone market. There really isn't a way for the consumer to signal this, though. In lieu of consumers I think companies tend to listen to influencers and journalists. I got that impression from watching the evolution of the Xperia Compact which solicited a lot of hate from journalists for its appearances and the misalignment from the norms. Hate to which Sony in many aspects decided to bend a knee to, much to my chagrin. I will say however, that I expect the biggest confounder is the expense to tool and maintain a niche phone makes it less feasible given the limited demand. It nonetheless does exist, and I hope that such costs can be reduced so the market can diversify its offerings and I can have another XZ1c experience.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

matly 3y ago

You'd be surprised about the amount of people wanting this kind of smartphone. The success of Framework, who are doing something similar in the Laptop world, could be a robust indicator for the demand. Especially the replaceable battery is something we really should get back to IMHO.

scarface_74 3y ago
The “success” of Framework? By what metric are you defining success?
- dns_snek 3y ago
  They employ 45 people and demand for their products is outpacing supply. Assuming they're at least breaking even, that's success.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    It's a success in this niche space. Just like there are niche smartphones providing all those features.
    - dns_snek 3y ago
      Could you please name these smartphones that run a modern version of Android, have modern hardware, and various niche features?
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        Samsung XCover 6 Pro, Fairphone 5.

graemep 3y ago

> Almost nobody wants this phone. Evidence? > Sure you'll get cheered on by some small group of people that wouldn't actually buy this phone either So all the people who say they want a phone like that are lying?

krisoft 3y ago
> So all the people who say they want a phone like that are lying? They are not lying. Just there aren't enough of them to make such a phone worth producing.
acdha 3y ago
Those features describe the average Android phone on the market until the mid-2010s. If there was popular demand, you’d expect the models which continued to have things like headphone jacks to sell well enough that someone would keep making them, but that just hasn’t been the case. This suggests that however genuine the desire is, it’s just not widely shared enough to actually constitute a viable market – somewhere below the level of, say, manual transmissions on cars.
- graemep 3y ago
  Or it demonstrates a lack of competition in the market which allows a handful of big manufacturers, who have similar incentives to cut costs, to make the same decision to cut costs - lots of small reductions lead to a relatively big total increase in margins. In terms of wh.at actually gets marketed to most consumers choice is quite limited I do have a phone that is about two years old that has a headphone jack. Replaceable batteries and lack of SD card slots is essential deliberately shortening the life of phones to get people to upgrade sooner.
  - fkyoureadthedoc 3y ago
    Batteries are replaceable, just not by you. Do some people replace their phone when the battery sucks? Sure, maybe. But then that phone probably gets refurbished for someone else to buy. The main use of user replaceable batteries for me was always when my phone only lasted a few hours so I had to swap another one. My Samsung Blackjack with 3G would die in like an hour if I was actively using the 3g connection lol. G1 and HTC Evo also didn't last a whole shift at work.

sandworm101 3y ago

Well, someone wants these features enough that many will soon be mandatory. USB port = Mandated in the EU by end of 2024. Replaceable battery = Mandated in EU by 2027. Dual sim cards = common in the global south. Headphone jack = wanted by everyone not a youtube influencer. Compromise: I'll accept TWO USB-C ports in exchange for the headphone jack. Usb to 3.5mm adapter wires cost maybe 6$ on amazon.

aceazzameen 3y ago
My next phone will be an imported EU phone. I won't even care if it doesn't connect to cell towers (it will though).
rrdharan 3y ago
I’m not a YouTube influencer and I don’t want a headphone jack. I haven’t used wired headphones in five years.
neoberg 3y ago
Other features you mentioned maybe but no one cares about the headphone jack anymore. I don't remember most people using it a lot even before it started to disappear.
- sandworm101 3y ago
  I have bought maybe ten usb-to-3.5mm adapters in recent years. I keep giving them away. Last time I went on a work trip (military) I gave away two sets of cheap wired headphones+adapters to kids whose bluetooth headsets had stopped working during long plane/bus rides. (19yo = kid) I'm not kidding when I say I recently saw someone on a plane using a wireless charging station. They had wrapped tape around the phone to hold it on the charger. Progress!
  - Kon-Peki 3y ago
    Have you found good adapters (or ones to avoid)? I've been using the same $9 Apple one for 3+ years at this point. There have been times when I've pulled it out of my bag and saved the day. Young people are amazed that it just works (microphone and all), Mac or Windows, computer or tablet. Ain't progress wonderful?

TeMPOraL 3y ago

Key part of GP's comment: > It's going into a protective case anyway. With that in mind, it seems it's not really customers that want ever thinner, ever more sealed and port-free phones. The very first purchase they make after buying a new phone already defeats the purported benefits of those design choices. I maintain this market is supplier-driven, and customer preferences have near-zero bearing on how phones look like today.

krisoft 3y ago
> The very first purchase they make after buying a new phone already defeats the purported benefits of those design choices. While protective cases make the phones marginally thicker they don't make them less water proof. Which is in my opinion the purpose of making phones sealed and as port-free as possible. And even with the protective case my current phone is much thinner than any phone I had with a user replaceable battery.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  That may be a justification, but IMHO not the actual reason. It's about cost cutting, improving reliability, making space for more marketable features like camera and battery. BTW, Samsung Galaxy S5 had all those features, even replaceable battery and was still waterproof.
nonrandomstring 3y ago
The question of "what people want" is fascinating. Like forever, some of the smartest people around admitted that they did not know. They created the entire field of market research. Today I think that is dead. In the past decade we moved to an entirely different model of force-fed consumerism, which is driven, as you say, entirely by the supply side. Oddly the near communist era uniformity we see goes against our stated beliefs in data-driven, targeted markets. A whole other layer is how we increasingly project our own desires onto others and assume they must be crazy not to want the exact same thing as ourselves. Where does that come from? Here on HN I get tired of hearing these very strident, cock-sure remarks about "what people want is...". Let's just admit we don't have much idea about what other people want. There's nowt as queer as folk. And some of the most interesting markets may in fact be marginal. Smaller markets do not mean unprofitable ones.

globular-toast 3y ago

Sony has somehow made it work (except the replaceable battery). I think the only thing they've got rid of recently is the notification LED. It doesn't help when a very large number of phone users only care about one thing: it being an Apple phone. They will lap up anything Apple gives them every single time. It doesn't matter what the features are.

acdha 3y ago
> It doesn't matter what the features are. What is more likely: that millions of people spend money on something they use constantly without caring whether it’s actually good, or that your emotional attachment to Android has caused you not to reconsider whether your tastes are in fact universally shared? Any time you see billions of dollars changing hands for years in a competitive market but don’t understand why, the answer is always to learn more about it.
krisoft 3y ago
> They will lap up anything Apple gives them every single time. It doesn't matter what the features are. Or, Apple actually makes well made good phones which people find desirable? I understand it is popular to talk trash about them, but maybe their popularity is not all just a product of misguided masses?
fkyoureadthedoc 3y ago
> Sony has somehow made it work And yet every post about phones there's people acting like no phones that meet their requirements exist. They definitely exist. I think what they really intend to say is "Why doesn't Samsung put these exact features I want on the Galaxy S Whatever"
- globular-toast 3y ago
  Yes. iPhone users in particular don't even know about Android. There are two phone manufacturers: Apple and Samsung.

brnaftr361 3y ago

I think there are actually a lot of demands that are unserviced in the phone market. There really isn't a way for the consumer to signal this, though. In lieu of consumers I think companies tend to listen to influencers and journalists. I got that impression from watching the evolution of the Xperia Compact which solicited a lot of hate from journalists for its appearances and the misalignment from the norms. Hate to which Sony in many aspects decided to bend a knee to, much to my chagrin. I will say however, that I expect the biggest confounder is the expense to tool and maintain a niche phone makes it less feasible given the limited demand. It nonetheless does exist, and I hope that such costs can be reduced so the market can diversify its offerings and I can have another XZ1c experience.