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Your parallel to the search warrant on Trump's residence hardly seems at all relevant. NARA asked for return of the documents, then a long negotiation ensued,

Your parallel to the search warrant on Trump's residence hardly seems at all relevant. NARA asked for return of the documents, then a long negotiation ensued, along with partial return of the records. After the criminal investigation started, the DOJ subpoenaed Trump, and after several weeks of back-and-forths went to Mar-a-Lago to retrieve the subpoenaed documents. The DOJ believed there were more documents, and issued a subpoena for surveillance footage. Only then was a search warrant issued, and with a far higher level of scrutiny than usual. The search took place at 9am, the Secret Service were warned a few hours before, and two of Trump's lawyers were present. Do you really think you can compare that to a 6am surprise raid where "This week alone saw Atlanta-area raids by law enforcement that took a woman out of her house with no shirt, left a naked photo of another woman on display after ransacking a room and dragged a man by his hair – while arresting none of them." or "person living at the house where Mazurek was arrested woke up on Thursday to a flashbang grenade"? No. > sounds like they were executing a search warrant The problem is that people believe that a 6am surprise raid using flash grenades and dragging people out by their hair is equivalent to a 9am search warrant executed with warning at the residence of an ex-President, with his lawyers present. Both are search warrants executed under color of law. That doesn't mean they have anywhere near equal respect for the occupants of the homes being searched.

philwelch 3y ago
> Your parallel to the search warrant on Trump's residence hardly seems at all relevant. It establishes that search warrants usually come before indictments in the investigation process, not after them. > The problem is that people believe that a 6am surprise raid using flash grenades and dragging people out by their hair is equivalent to a 9am search warrant executed with warning at the residence of an ex-President, with his lawyers present. Yes, that is the difference between a domestic terrorism investigation and a mishandling-classified-documents investigation.
- eesmith 3y ago
  So why bring Trump into a Law 101 topic? My point is you prima facie should not compare them as the two search warrants are issued with a very different level of scrutiny, and with very different levels of potential physical and emotional harm. A mishandling-classified-documents investigation does not require a higher level of scrutiny than a domestic terrorism investigation. Trump's search warrant had a higher level of scrutiny because he was President, not because of the type of case. We can see what the government has done in other stolen document cases, like the Harold T. Martin III case: "The FBI originally believed Martin to be the source of the Shadow Brokers thefts of NSA hacking tools, and used the information provided by Kaspersky researchers to execute a search warrant on Martin's modest residence in suburban Glen Burnie, Maryland, deploying a SWAT team, setting up roadblocks, breaking down the front door with a battering ram, and deploying flash bangs inside the house before removing Martin at gunpoint". (Quoting Wikipedia.) Yes, he mishandled classified documents but no, he was not part of the Shadow Brokers. He may have been simply a data hoarder as "he appeared not to have ever accessed any of the files once he removed them from government facilities". The level of force used in his search warrant does not seem much different than these Georgia raids. Or a comparison with Jack Teixiera, also arrested on espionage charges, where the search warrant was executed by heavily armed police using an armored vehicle. At least that one took place in the afternoon when Teixiera and his family were awake and dressed. Here's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eMrlJUeBYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eMrlJUeBYU Again, not much different, but showing it is possible to be a bit more humane in executing this sort of warrant. We can also look at the Wen Ho Lee case to see what the government does to someone who they wrongly believe to be a spy, when the only evidence they had was his mishandling of "Protect As Restricted Data" work - which they retroactively classified to "Secret" so they could charge him. Trump called the very calm and non-violent raid on Mar-a-Lago an act of political persecution. Surely these Georgia search warrants may also be viewed as an act of political persecution.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    > So why bring Trump into a Law 101 topic? Because it was a recent, high profile example of a search warrant being executed against a residence prior to the indictment of a suspect. Though I should have anticipated that some people would struggle to decouple their strong feelings about the former president from the specific point I was trying to make. > A mishandling-classified-documents investigation does not require a higher level of scrutiny than a domestic terrorism investigation. It’s not about the “level of scrutiny” so much as the risk to the officers executing the search. If you’re investigating people for committing organized and premeditated acts of violence motivated by opposition to law enforcement, it’s reasonable to presume that those suspects pose a high level of danger to law enforcement.

philwelch 3y ago

> Your parallel to the search warrant on Trump's residence hardly seems at all relevant. It establishes that search warrants usually come before indictments in the investigation process, not after them. > The problem is that people believe that a 6am surprise raid using flash grenades and dragging people out by their hair is equivalent to a 9am search warrant executed with warning at the residence of an ex-President, with his lawyers present. Yes, that is the difference between a domestic terrorism investigation and a mishandling-classified-documents investigation.

eesmith 3y ago
So why bring Trump into a Law 101 topic? My point is you prima facie should not compare them as the two search warrants are issued with a very different level of scrutiny, and with very different levels of potential physical and emotional harm. A mishandling-classified-documents investigation does not require a higher level of scrutiny than a domestic terrorism investigation. Trump's search warrant had a higher level of scrutiny because he was President, not because of the type of case. We can see what the government has done in other stolen document cases, like the Harold T. Martin III case: "The FBI originally believed Martin to be the source of the Shadow Brokers thefts of NSA hacking tools, and used the information provided by Kaspersky researchers to execute a search warrant on Martin's modest residence in suburban Glen Burnie, Maryland, deploying a SWAT team, setting up roadblocks, breaking down the front door with a battering ram, and deploying flash bangs inside the house before removing Martin at gunpoint". (Quoting Wikipedia.) Yes, he mishandled classified documents but no, he was not part of the Shadow Brokers. He may have been simply a data hoarder as "he appeared not to have ever accessed any of the files once he removed them from government facilities". The level of force used in his search warrant does not seem much different than these Georgia raids. Or a comparison with Jack Teixiera, also arrested on espionage charges, where the search warrant was executed by heavily armed police using an armored vehicle. At least that one took place in the afternoon when Teixiera and his family were awake and dressed. Here's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eMrlJUeBYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eMrlJUeBYU Again, not much different, but showing it is possible to be a bit more humane in executing this sort of warrant. We can also look at the Wen Ho Lee case to see what the government does to someone who they wrongly believe to be a spy, when the only evidence they had was his mishandling of "Protect As Restricted Data" work - which they retroactively classified to "Secret" so they could charge him. Trump called the very calm and non-violent raid on Mar-a-Lago an act of political persecution. Surely these Georgia search warrants may also be viewed as an act of political persecution.
- philwelch 3y ago
  > So why bring Trump into a Law 101 topic? Because it was a recent, high profile example of a search warrant being executed against a residence prior to the indictment of a suspect. Though I should have anticipated that some people would struggle to decouple their strong feelings about the former president from the specific point I was trying to make. > A mishandling-classified-documents investigation does not require a higher level of scrutiny than a domestic terrorism investigation. It’s not about the “level of scrutiny” so much as the risk to the officers executing the search. If you’re investigating people for committing organized and premeditated acts of violence motivated by opposition to law enforcement, it’s reasonable to presume that those suspects pose a high level of danger to law enforcement.