6 ms·

You're misconstruing what census.gov says. If you look into the "definitions" section it defines "Housing Unit. A housing unit is a house, an apartment, a grou

by hmcq6 3y ago

You're misconstruing what census.gov says. If you look into the "definitions" section it defines "Housing Unit. A housing unit is a house, an apartment, a group of rooms, or a single room occupied or intended for occupancy as separate living quarters." and "Householder. The householder refers to the person (or one of the persons) in whose name the housing unit is owned or rented [...]" 49% of people aged 30-34 aren't homeowners, 49% of us are homeowners or renters. > The avg American is completely priced out of owning a home right now. You haven't disproven this statement in any way, you've just linked to some statistics that show we can still afford rent.

lolinder 3y ago
No, I'm not. I'm citing the numbers in the table entitled "Quarterly Homeownership Rates for the U.S. and Regions: 1964 to Present"* (emphasis added). That table is talking about homeownership rates, not householdership rates, and the definition they give is this: > Homeownership Rates. The proportion of households that are owners is termed the homeownership rate. It is computed by dividing the number of households that are owners by the total number of occupied households (table 5 and 6) Here's the table: https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab17.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab17.xlsx And for the benefit of others, here are the definitions: https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/definitions.pdf https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/definitions.pdf * EDIT: I was also citing "Homeownership Rates by Age of Householder: Fourth Quarter 2022 and 2023", which is likewise about homeownership
- hmcq6 3y ago
  That table doesn't break things down by age. Just own it dude. You pulled the "49% of people aged 30-34" thing from this chart https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/qtr423/tab7.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/qtr423/tab7.xlsx or some variation of it and you misunderstood it.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    Sorry, I just updated my links to include the citation for the age breakdown, which is in fact the link you linked to. Note the title of the chart you linked to (tab7.xlsx): "Homeownership Rates by Age of Householder" (emphasis added). This is percentage of householders who own the home that they are the householder of. EDIT: Also, while I'm at it, here's "Homeownership Rates by Age of Householder: 1994 to Present" (again, homeownership), which shows a 39% homeownership rate under 35 years old, which is about the same rate as it was throughout the 90s. It broke 40% in the 2000s for a while before coming back down, but was never higher than about 43%. https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab19.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab19.xlsx
    - hmcq6 3y ago
      > This is percentage of householders who own the home that they are the householder of. It is not. It's a ratio of homeowners in an age group to the number of renter households in that age group, which is kinda a useless statistic. To explain why it's a bad metric take this real (but simplified) example. My roommate and I share a "household". Lets pretend that besides my roommate and I there is only one other person aged 30-34 in the US and they own a home. The Homeownership Rates by Age of Householder chart would say 50%. 1 owner household / 2 total occupied households. Now if you read that chart and take it to mean that there is only 1 homeowner and 1 renter, you would be misunderstanding what the statistics mean. There are more renters than homeowners in our example but the metric doesn't reflect that because it isn't meant to.
      - lolinder 3y ago
        This is a fair argument and as late as it is I don't have a reply—you're right that there are limitations that I hadn't considered, and I'll have to look at the numbers more closely to figure out what they mean *. However, I want to note that this represents a sudden change of pace from your original "49% of us are homeowners or renters" and "you've just linked to some statistics that show we can still afford rent". When you misunderstood the situation, you insisted that I "own it" that I was wrong (when I wasn't). It would behoove you to do so yourself instead of pretending you understood the numbers all along. * Edit: as an initial thought, I'd argue that the same argument often applies to the homeowner number—my wife and I jointly owning one house balances out you and your roommate.
  - grfhtsdfvv 3y ago
    [flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
kenjackson 3y ago
> 49% of people aged 30-34 aren't homeowners, 49% of us are homeowners or renters. Wait, this is saying less than 50% of people aged 30-34 live in a home that is owned or rented by them (or their spouse)? I can't imagine a region where this is close to true, since probably near 100% where I live either own or rent. Is there a regional breakdown for this? And where do these people live? With their parents or in a shelter?
- lolinder 3y ago
  They're wrong, they got confused because the header column on the data is labeled "age of householder". This is because the data is the ratio of householders who own their homes to total householders, broken down by the age of the householder. The title of the tables I'm looking at are "Homeownership rates by Age of Householder", which makes it pretty clear what they mean. https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/qtr423/tab7.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/qtr423/tab7.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab19.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab19.xlsx
- hmcq6 3y ago
  If two or more people rent the same "household" (house, apartment, couple of rooms) they are only counted a single time. 1 homeowner and 1 renter = 50% 1 homeowner and 2 renters in the same apartment = 50% 1 homeowner and 200,000 renters in the same apartment = 50% 1 homeowner and 2 renters in 2 different apartments = 33% It's a ratio of homeowners to the number of buildings the rest of us rent out.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - naniwaduni 3y ago
    I notice that this isn't even close to the claim GP quotes you making. It's wild to me that you're out here telling the other guy to just own up to their "misunderstanding" while furiously backpedaling your own. There is subtlety of the "renters are probably systematically undercounted due to the vagaries of householding" variety, but that is neither a straightforward effect (a homeowning married couple with 2 of their parents and 3 adult children under the same roof and 1 single renter in an apartment = 50%!) nor is it remotely what you were saying to begin with.
jMyles 3y ago
This turned into a wild and (perhaps understandably) aggressive discussion. After reading all of the back-and-forths here, I just wanted to thank you for continually being the clarifying force in this discussion, even amidst the downvotes and fallacies. As a 41-year-old urban homeowner, I knew I was in a lucky category, but I didn't realize how difficult it actually is to know how lucky based on the available data.

by hmcq6 3y ago

lolinder 3y ago

No, I'm not. I'm citing the numbers in the table entitled "Quarterly Homeownership Rates for the U.S. and Regions: 1964 to Present"* (emphasis added). That table is talking about homeownership rates, not householdership rates, and the definition they give is this: > Homeownership Rates. The proportion of households that are owners is termed the homeownership rate. It is computed by dividing the number of households that are owners by the total number of occupied households (table 5 and 6) Here's the table: https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab17.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab17.xlsx And for the benefit of others, here are the definitions: https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/definitions.pdf https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/definitions.pdf * EDIT: I was also citing "Homeownership Rates by Age of Householder: Fourth Quarter 2022 and 2023", which is likewise about homeownership

hmcq6 3y ago
That table doesn't break things down by age. Just own it dude. You pulled the "49% of people aged 30-34" thing from this chart https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/qtr423/tab7.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/qtr423/tab7.xlsx or some variation of it and you misunderstood it.
- lolinder 3y ago
  Sorry, I just updated my links to include the citation for the age breakdown, which is in fact the link you linked to. Note the title of the chart you linked to (tab7.xlsx): "Homeownership Rates by Age of Householder" (emphasis added). This is percentage of householders who own the home that they are the householder of. EDIT: Also, while I'm at it, here's "Homeownership Rates by Age of Householder: 1994 to Present" (again, homeownership), which shows a 39% homeownership rate under 35 years old, which is about the same rate as it was throughout the 90s. It broke 40% in the 2000s for a while before coming back down, but was never higher than about 43%. https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab19.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab19.xlsx
  - hmcq6 3y ago
    > This is percentage of householders who own the home that they are the householder of. It is not. It's a ratio of homeowners in an age group to the number of renter households in that age group, which is kinda a useless statistic. To explain why it's a bad metric take this real (but simplified) example. My roommate and I share a "household". Lets pretend that besides my roommate and I there is only one other person aged 30-34 in the US and they own a home. The Homeownership Rates by Age of Householder chart would say 50%. 1 owner household / 2 total occupied households. Now if you read that chart and take it to mean that there is only 1 homeowner and 1 renter, you would be misunderstanding what the statistics mean. There are more renters than homeowners in our example but the metric doesn't reflect that because it isn't meant to.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      This is a fair argument and as late as it is I don't have a reply—you're right that there are limitations that I hadn't considered, and I'll have to look at the numbers more closely to figure out what they mean *. However, I want to note that this represents a sudden change of pace from your original "49% of us are homeowners or renters" and "you've just linked to some statistics that show we can still afford rent". When you misunderstood the situation, you insisted that I "own it" that I was wrong (when I wasn't). It would behoove you to do so yourself instead of pretending you understood the numbers all along. * Edit: as an initial thought, I'd argue that the same argument often applies to the homeowner number—my wife and I jointly owning one house balances out you and your roommate.
- grfhtsdfvv 3y ago
  [flagged]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

kenjackson 3y ago

> 49% of people aged 30-34 aren't homeowners, 49% of us are homeowners or renters. Wait, this is saying less than 50% of people aged 30-34 live in a home that is owned or rented by them (or their spouse)? I can't imagine a region where this is close to true, since probably near 100% where I live either own or rent. Is there a regional breakdown for this? And where do these people live? With their parents or in a shelter?

lolinder 3y ago
They're wrong, they got confused because the header column on the data is labeled "age of householder". This is because the data is the ratio of householders who own their homes to total householders, broken down by the age of the householder. The title of the tables I'm looking at are "Homeownership rates by Age of Householder", which makes it pretty clear what they mean. https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/qtr423/tab7.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/qtr423/tab7.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab19.xlsx https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/histtab19.xlsx
hmcq6 3y ago
If two or more people rent the same "household" (house, apartment, couple of rooms) they are only counted a single time. 1 homeowner and 1 renter = 50% 1 homeowner and 2 renters in the same apartment = 50% 1 homeowner and 200,000 renters in the same apartment = 50% 1 homeowner and 2 renters in 2 different apartments = 33% It's a ratio of homeowners to the number of buildings the rest of us rent out.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- naniwaduni 3y ago
  I notice that this isn't even close to the claim GP quotes you making. It's wild to me that you're out here telling the other guy to just own up to their "misunderstanding" while furiously backpedaling your own. There is subtlety of the "renters are probably systematically undercounted due to the vagaries of householding" variety, but that is neither a straightforward effect (a homeowning married couple with 2 of their parents and 3 adult children under the same roof and 1 single renter in an apartment = 50%!) nor is it remotely what you were saying to begin with.

jMyles 3y ago

This turned into a wild and (perhaps understandably) aggressive discussion. After reading all of the back-and-forths here, I just wanted to thank you for continually being the clarifying force in this discussion, even amidst the downvotes and fallacies. As a 41-year-old urban homeowner, I knew I was in a lucky category, but I didn't realize how difficult it actually is to know how lucky based on the available data.