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The societal norms and structures that promoted natalism are gone in western countries for much of the population. Raising kids is hard work. Ideally you have

The societal norms and structures that promoted natalism are gone in western countries for much of the population. Raising kids is hard work. Ideally you have them young and live close to your family so that you have grandparents to help with childcare. But our society tells people to wait as long as possible to have kids, and to prioritize career over other things - so once people do have kids, if they ever do so, then often grandparents are too old or far away to fill that traditional role. So lots of people are stuck paying thousands a month for daycare. Just one of many ways that our system finds innovative ways to extract money out of people for things that used to be free or part of being in a community.

jimbob45 3y ago
Raising kids is hard work. I would bet this plays a large part - people today respect the difficulty in a way past parents previously did not. Birth rates are certainly declining but I would bet the rates of accidental infant/toddler death are down as well. That said, I personally know parents that are just taunting SIDS with the way they ignore infant sleeping best practices even though they’ve read the books to know better.
- auggierose 3y ago
  That's just the thing, isn't it. You can try to oblige to all best practices and have zero kids in the process, or you can just have the kids and figure it out as you go. No matter the kid mortality rate, the second approach still wins.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Societal expectation on the care for children grew immensely over the past few generations. When I was a child, parents largely just covered the physical needs and the kids were otherwise left alone to do their own thing. I remember being bored a lot, sitting in a room or roaming the streets. Nowadays there's a widespread expectation that parents should organize activities, drive their kids' education, just be way more involved in their lives.
- silentdanni 3y ago
  The inherent difficulty in raising kids plays a significant role in my decision. Additionally, I feel we are no longer glamorising parenthood as we once did. I remember when I was a kid, before the internet was a thing, it was pretty standard to see ads that claimed parenthood was an experience filled with joy and no challenges. For the past decade or so, though, I feel that parents are much more honest when discussing parenthood's challenges. We heard about post-labour depression, financial struggles, sleepless nights, end of careers and so on. It's a radical life change, and most of us do not want to commit.
bowsamic 3y ago
Every support system, from the "family home" where the grandparents have a bed, to the woman not working and taking care of the kids, has been systematically destroyed. Now everyone is expected to work and live alone/as a couple, and they have basically no physical support for raising a child.
- anhner 3y ago
  I think this is the main issue right here. The others being increased housing cost (you need space for kids) and increasing costs (daycare, kindergarten, nappies etc.).
dukeyukey 3y ago
> and live close to your family so that you have grandparents to help with childcare. Issue with this now is how concentrated certain industries are. Here in the UK, if I want to work in software, you need to move to a handful of expensive cities. London, Oxford, Cambridge, maybe Bristol or Manchester. Maybe some others if you're happy in a non-software job. Certainly not the rural farming town I grew up in, or anywhere within hours of driving. So people move away. And now I'm faced with either delaying kids so I can get reasonably set-up in a city where a 500sqft flat costs £300,000 or moving away from all my friends and maybe even further from my family to afford a house.
princeb 3y ago
singapore gives generous subsidies to working adults with children who hire live-in helpers/nannies. the government spent a lot of money on subsidizing tertiary education and the last thing they need are adults dropping out of the workforce after earning a diploma or a degree. many families hire a live-in helper, who is typically a low-income migrant worker from a neighbouring country. due to space constraints only the most privileged can hire two or more. as it is with asian tradition, parents primarily involve themselves in the area of discipline and education, and everything else is left to the nannies. the low-income families who cannot afford a helper or the living space for a helper suffer from a lack of enforcing discipline or providing for a growing child and low-income children often grow up maladjusted to the modern working society. singapore unfortunately, still suffers from a low replacement rate, so the foreign domestic worker (FDW, as it is known) policy while enough to move the dial away from the danger zone that is south korea, is still not enough to ensure singapore is growing comfortably. however, at this point i don't believe allowing (the FDW policy is generous and broad-based enough to extend to working adults with elderly, which means that subsidies for domestic help pretty much extend to working adults through a significant part of their working life. families often qualify for significant subsidies taking care of multiple generations through several decades.)
- mlrtime 3y ago
  Not disagreeing with what you wrote above.... However, some of the spaces created for the legal live-in helpers [I've seen in Hong Kong and Singapore] would be considered substandard in the US. I'm talking closet size rooms with no windows big enough for a single bed and a few shelves. If the US would allow this domestic help and possibly the same rooms, child care would be much easier.
nemo44x 3y ago
> Raising kids is hard work. It's really not that hard. You just have to change expectations and lifestyle. I never thought of it as "work" per-se but rather an obligation and responsibility to people brought into the world. It's amazing really. It's probably not for everyone and if someone sees it the same way as doing actual work then maybe it isn't for them.
- 2024throwaway 3y ago
  Currently changing diapers and feeding every 3 hours through the night. It’s work.
  - baq 3y ago
    +1 on work. It isn't hard as in you don't have to be very qualified to do it. It is hard in that it's physically (sometimes) and mentally (always) exhausting. And yet you're expected to pay for it yourself and spent your free time for it. Parents should be paid to be parents.
    - nemo44x 3y ago
      > Parents should be paid to be parents. A parent is wealthy beyond money. Besides, we get tax breaks and if you're not a decent earner you get free things for being a parent. And I guess when I say it's not that hard - what I mean is that yeah there's effort involved, often time a lot. But it is made out to be this impossible thing. It's not. You figure it out and before you know it the really hard days are over. So yeah it's work but that shouldn't dissuade anyone from having kids. Anything good takes effort.
  - nemo44x 3y ago
    It doesn't last that long. Been there, done that. But yeah it's work, of course it is. What I'm saying is it isn't as difficult as it is made out to be - that is it's made out to be this impossible thing. But yeah they break your back sometimes and emotionally it can be daunting. But those very difficult early days end pretty fast. What we did is mom pumped and put milk in bottles. She's go to be at like 7PM after a feeding off the tap and I'd take over and stay up until 2 or 3 to feed baby and change diapers every 2 or so hours. Then she'd be back at it in the early morning hours. It only lasts a bit.

jimbob45 3y ago

Raising kids is hard work. I would bet this plays a large part - people today respect the difficulty in a way past parents previously did not. Birth rates are certainly declining but I would bet the rates of accidental infant/toddler death are down as well. That said, I personally know parents that are just taunting SIDS with the way they ignore infant sleeping best practices even though they’ve read the books to know better.

auggierose 3y ago
That's just the thing, isn't it. You can try to oblige to all best practices and have zero kids in the process, or you can just have the kids and figure it out as you go. No matter the kid mortality rate, the second approach still wins.
The_Colonel 3y ago
Societal expectation on the care for children grew immensely over the past few generations. When I was a child, parents largely just covered the physical needs and the kids were otherwise left alone to do their own thing. I remember being bored a lot, sitting in a room or roaming the streets. Nowadays there's a widespread expectation that parents should organize activities, drive their kids' education, just be way more involved in their lives.
silentdanni 3y ago
The inherent difficulty in raising kids plays a significant role in my decision. Additionally, I feel we are no longer glamorising parenthood as we once did. I remember when I was a kid, before the internet was a thing, it was pretty standard to see ads that claimed parenthood was an experience filled with joy and no challenges. For the past decade or so, though, I feel that parents are much more honest when discussing parenthood's challenges. We heard about post-labour depression, financial struggles, sleepless nights, end of careers and so on. It's a radical life change, and most of us do not want to commit.

bowsamic 3y ago

Every support system, from the "family home" where the grandparents have a bed, to the woman not working and taking care of the kids, has been systematically destroyed. Now everyone is expected to work and live alone/as a couple, and they have basically no physical support for raising a child.

anhner 3y ago
I think this is the main issue right here. The others being increased housing cost (you need space for kids) and increasing costs (daycare, kindergarten, nappies etc.).

dukeyukey 3y ago

> and live close to your family so that you have grandparents to help with childcare. Issue with this now is how concentrated certain industries are. Here in the UK, if I want to work in software, you need to move to a handful of expensive cities. London, Oxford, Cambridge, maybe Bristol or Manchester. Maybe some others if you're happy in a non-software job. Certainly not the rural farming town I grew up in, or anywhere within hours of driving. So people move away. And now I'm faced with either delaying kids so I can get reasonably set-up in a city where a 500sqft flat costs £300,000 or moving away from all my friends and maybe even further from my family to afford a house.

princeb 3y ago

singapore gives generous subsidies to working adults with children who hire live-in helpers/nannies. the government spent a lot of money on subsidizing tertiary education and the last thing they need are adults dropping out of the workforce after earning a diploma or a degree. many families hire a live-in helper, who is typically a low-income migrant worker from a neighbouring country. due to space constraints only the most privileged can hire two or more. as it is with asian tradition, parents primarily involve themselves in the area of discipline and education, and everything else is left to the nannies. the low-income families who cannot afford a helper or the living space for a helper suffer from a lack of enforcing discipline or providing for a growing child and low-income children often grow up maladjusted to the modern working society. singapore unfortunately, still suffers from a low replacement rate, so the foreign domestic worker (FDW, as it is known) policy while enough to move the dial away from the danger zone that is south korea, is still not enough to ensure singapore is growing comfortably. however, at this point i don't believe allowing (the FDW policy is generous and broad-based enough to extend to working adults with elderly, which means that subsidies for domestic help pretty much extend to working adults through a significant part of their working life. families often qualify for significant subsidies taking care of multiple generations through several decades.)

mlrtime 3y ago
Not disagreeing with what you wrote above.... However, some of the spaces created for the legal live-in helpers [I've seen in Hong Kong and Singapore] would be considered substandard in the US. I'm talking closet size rooms with no windows big enough for a single bed and a few shelves. If the US would allow this domestic help and possibly the same rooms, child care would be much easier.

nemo44x 3y ago

> Raising kids is hard work. It's really not that hard. You just have to change expectations and lifestyle. I never thought of it as "work" per-se but rather an obligation and responsibility to people brought into the world. It's amazing really. It's probably not for everyone and if someone sees it the same way as doing actual work then maybe it isn't for them.

2024throwaway 3y ago
Currently changing diapers and feeding every 3 hours through the night. It’s work.
- baq 3y ago
  +1 on work. It isn't hard as in you don't have to be very qualified to do it. It is hard in that it's physically (sometimes) and mentally (always) exhausting. And yet you're expected to pay for it yourself and spent your free time for it. Parents should be paid to be parents.
  - nemo44x 3y ago
    > Parents should be paid to be parents. A parent is wealthy beyond money. Besides, we get tax breaks and if you're not a decent earner you get free things for being a parent. And I guess when I say it's not that hard - what I mean is that yeah there's effort involved, often time a lot. But it is made out to be this impossible thing. It's not. You figure it out and before you know it the really hard days are over. So yeah it's work but that shouldn't dissuade anyone from having kids. Anything good takes effort.
- nemo44x 3y ago
  It doesn't last that long. Been there, done that. But yeah it's work, of course it is. What I'm saying is it isn't as difficult as it is made out to be - that is it's made out to be this impossible thing. But yeah they break your back sometimes and emotionally it can be daunting. But those very difficult early days end pretty fast. What we did is mom pumped and put milk in bottles. She's go to be at like 7PM after a feeding off the tap and I'd take over and stay up until 2 or 3 to feed baby and change diapers every 2 or so hours. Then she'd be back at it in the early morning hours. It only lasts a bit.