and this leads to 4 engineers and 6 managers sitting in a meeting, and nobody actually being responsible for anything. no, of course, there's a lot of value in

and this leads to 4 engineers and 6 managers sitting in a meeting, and nobody actually being responsible for anything. no, of course, there's a lot of value in providing escalation/descalation/rehoming processes, and dedicated ways for org-wide feedback on people's and projects' impact, but people are not just three orthonormal roles on top of each other in a trenchcoat, if there's not clear hierarchy then - as others pointed out - the informal chaos takes over (because it's the human default)