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One of the ways the “West” begins/is losing its way: don’t prioritize the truth and don’t focus on the truly important things. Think short term. It took them lo

One of the ways the “West” begins/is losing its way: don’t prioritize the truth and don’t focus on the truly important things. Think short term. It took them long to get to this point.

mglz 3y ago
It's not the West as a whole, it's a specific group of MBA-types which hijacked many institutions. We know where the problem is coming from. We have enough people who want to do stuff like building planes properly. The next step is to make domain knowledge mandatory for leadership roles.
- neverrroot 3y ago
  Those MBA types you’re talking about is what got Boeing to the problems it has now, and it took them quite a while to get there. The West path I’m talking about is much more recent, it’s gonna still take a while.
- cpursley 3y ago
  We also have the same issue in politics and journalism: People with lightweight backgrounds making big decisions/observations/conclusions that actually require domain expertise.
- zephrx1111 3y ago
  Exactly. In my work as a senior software engineer, half of my work is to write some “popular science” versions of documents to educate the leadership. I have to over simplify the system to fit into their needs. It seems to me they don’t have the patience to understand some real complexity of the system, or even don’t have the curiosity to. They looks more like business man too me, instead of their title as software engineer director.
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  No those MBAs are just servants. It is the shareholders. And it is not only Boeing that has this problem. Investors want the line to go up and everything else be damned. And humans are exceptionally bad at long term planning.
Judgmentality 3y ago
What cultures do you think prioritize the truth?
- neverrroot 3y ago
  The cultures that focus on performance. Just like the West did in the past. Now, with DEI/woke agendas, the focus is definitely on something else, especially in academia.
  - Swenrekcah 3y ago
    Boeing’s problems have nothing to do with DEI. That’s not to say that some, not all, of DEI implementations aren’t stoopid, but it is just absolutely not what’s going on at Boeing. And also, you didn’t answer what the truth seeking cultures are if not the educated liberal democracies.
    - neverrroot 3y ago
      Boeing was about not prioritizing the right thing, short term thinking and not prioritizing the truth. It took long, but it there we are. Let’s agree to disagree on what my prior answer contains.
    - the_third_wave 3y ago
      DEI does to society what the penny pushers at Boeing did to their business: chasing the wrong objectives in search of some theoretical goal leads both to ruin. If any DEI implementation is not 'stoopid' that is only by happenstance, not due to some kernel of truth lurking behind the discriminatory revolutionary synthetic-society ideological hodgepodge that DEI is. There is no truth to be had there, only ideology.
      - _cenw 3y ago
        The Ideology is common people having baked in prejeduces, not becoming aware of them, and I'm continuously baffled how so many people on HN can't see beyond their own default view. The other Ideology is DEI usually being a pet project in corporate, more there to use for PR than to enact real change. HR will always reserve the right to fuck you over with all means available, and if that includes your race, gender or religion, they'll happily use that. This is a good extreme example: https://fandomwire.com/transgender-former-bethesda-employee-was-forced-out/ https://fandomwire.com/transgender-former-bethesda-employee-...
_cenw 3y ago
Sounds like nostalgia for a past that never was to me. Like a presidential slogan even.
- neverrroot 3y ago
  Not sure how you could think that the ongoing Boeing situation or the way of the New West has to do with nostalgia of the past. If you mean that focusing on the truly important things is about nostalgia, so be it.
  - _cenw 3y ago
    No, the notion that the culture shift at Boeing is an indication of general "western decline" and that such things didn't happen 20-50 years ago, and that we just need to rid ourselves of bad influences (like the person above me getting upset about DEI, despite no link to current issues as Boeing) to become great again. Incidentally, this is a popular narrative in fascist regimes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenesis#Politics_and_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenesis#Politics_and_hist...
    - neverrroot 3y ago
      I get the feeling you misunderstood my point.

One of the ways the “West” begins/is losing its way: don’t prioritize the truth and don’t focus on the truly important things. Think short term. It took them long to get to this point.

mglz 3y ago

It's not the West as a whole, it's a specific group of MBA-types which hijacked many institutions. We know where the problem is coming from. We have enough people who want to do stuff like building planes properly. The next step is to make domain knowledge mandatory for leadership roles.

neverrroot 3y ago
Those MBA types you’re talking about is what got Boeing to the problems it has now, and it took them quite a while to get there. The West path I’m talking about is much more recent, it’s gonna still take a while.
cpursley 3y ago
We also have the same issue in politics and journalism: People with lightweight backgrounds making big decisions/observations/conclusions that actually require domain expertise.
zephrx1111 3y ago
Exactly. In my work as a senior software engineer, half of my work is to write some “popular science” versions of documents to educate the leadership. I have to over simplify the system to fit into their needs. It seems to me they don’t have the patience to understand some real complexity of the system, or even don’t have the curiosity to. They looks more like business man too me, instead of their title as software engineer director.
WeylandYutani 3y ago
No those MBAs are just servants. It is the shareholders. And it is not only Boeing that has this problem. Investors want the line to go up and everything else be damned. And humans are exceptionally bad at long term planning.

Judgmentality 3y ago

What cultures do you think prioritize the truth?

neverrroot 3y ago
The cultures that focus on performance. Just like the West did in the past. Now, with DEI/woke agendas, the focus is definitely on something else, especially in academia.
- Swenrekcah 3y ago
  Boeing’s problems have nothing to do with DEI. That’s not to say that some, not all, of DEI implementations aren’t stoopid, but it is just absolutely not what’s going on at Boeing. And also, you didn’t answer what the truth seeking cultures are if not the educated liberal democracies.
  - neverrroot 3y ago
    Boeing was about not prioritizing the right thing, short term thinking and not prioritizing the truth. It took long, but it there we are. Let’s agree to disagree on what my prior answer contains.
  - the_third_wave 3y ago
    DEI does to society what the penny pushers at Boeing did to their business: chasing the wrong objectives in search of some theoretical goal leads both to ruin. If any DEI implementation is not 'stoopid' that is only by happenstance, not due to some kernel of truth lurking behind the discriminatory revolutionary synthetic-society ideological hodgepodge that DEI is. There is no truth to be had there, only ideology.
    - _cenw 3y ago
      The Ideology is common people having baked in prejeduces, not becoming aware of them, and I'm continuously baffled how so many people on HN can't see beyond their own default view. The other Ideology is DEI usually being a pet project in corporate, more there to use for PR than to enact real change. HR will always reserve the right to fuck you over with all means available, and if that includes your race, gender or religion, they'll happily use that. This is a good extreme example: https://fandomwire.com/transgender-former-bethesda-employee-was-forced-out/ https://fandomwire.com/transgender-former-bethesda-employee-...

_cenw 3y ago

Sounds like nostalgia for a past that never was to me. Like a presidential slogan even.

neverrroot 3y ago
Not sure how you could think that the ongoing Boeing situation or the way of the New West has to do with nostalgia of the past. If you mean that focusing on the truly important things is about nostalgia, so be it.
- _cenw 3y ago
  No, the notion that the culture shift at Boeing is an indication of general "western decline" and that such things didn't happen 20-50 years ago, and that we just need to rid ourselves of bad influences (like the person above me getting upset about DEI, despite no link to current issues as Boeing) to become great again. Incidentally, this is a popular narrative in fascist regimes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenesis#Politics_and_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenesis#Politics_and_hist...
  - neverrroot 3y ago
    I get the feeling you misunderstood my point.