5 ms·

> Key Elements for Job Search Microsite > * Have a professional profile picture I don't do this, for two reasons: 1. Being a photographer taught me that I'm

by neilv 3y ago

> Key Elements for Job Search Microsite > * Have a professional profile picture I don't do this, for two reasons: 1. Being a photographer taught me that I'm much better on the buttons side of the camera, not the lens side. 2. Photos really don't belong in hiring in the US. Due to the long history of unfair prejudices, which are still ongoing in some ways. Even better would be if we could remove names, for being cues as to gender, racial/ethnic background, caste, and other socioeconomic status. But photos are easy to eliminate from hiring processes, and in fact we were rid of them in the US, until "social media"-like sites like LinkedIn reintroduced photos to resumes.

Waterluvian 3y ago
I went through interview training and one of the reasons why they’re so adamant that résumés go into an automated parser was to strip photos and other info like that.
- smileson2 3y ago
  Yeah, on my end reviewing resume or when we did take-homes things like names and photos were always erased to prevent 'bias' We did interview and hire a lot more women and PoC than other firms I've worked with so I guess it works to some degree
  - 4hg4ufxhy 3y ago
    Should you conduct the interview without camera and with a voicechanger?
    - marshray 3y ago
      Some US employers no longer conduct interviews at all for some positions.
      - imadierich 3y ago
        [dead]
      - lazide 3y ago
        That sounds entertaining for the hiring managers. I imagine firing someone incompetent must be super fun too in that situation.
    - neilv 3y ago
      We can't eliminate all unfair biases, but if we can reduce unfair biases preventing people from even getting to the interview, that's a win.
  - gedy 3y ago
    This starts to sound a little kooky - if there's that much bias going around that we need to play games with hiding info from the interviewers, then how can they work effectively with this person if they can't be trusted?
    - lazide 3y ago
      You can’t.
willsmith72 3y ago
Yeah I was shocked by this as well moving from Australia to Germany, it's a euro thing. Some will even put "single" or "married" on their cv, though I'm told that's dying out
- nielsole 3y ago
  It used to be common to put in occupation of the parents as well.
- Mydayyy 3y ago
  From germany here. I removed the photo from my CV a few years ago. Never got asked about it during hiring. Obviously I don't have any numbers whether/how often I got sorted out due to that. But I hope the expectation to have a photo on your CV also dies out here.
  - n_ary 3y ago
    I also hope that this dies out. While I used to put my photo as usual for years because this is how we do Lebenslauf, then one of my immigrant friend got severely discriminated(with clear evidence, guess the HR lady was new hire), so I started leaving my photo out in protest. While I got some issues for a while about “better knowing our colleague and avoid hiring scam(?)”, eventually this stopped after I got some experience. Now, if someone asks me for a photo or is concerned(one of my parents is immigrant background so I have a slightly hybrid name), I just tell them to know me better in person when I am in Office and they can take a photo with me when I meet them. That all being said, the photo was more of a cultural thing in the past, it was useful for identification and filing purposes as well. However, in modern times the practice stuck and gave ways to discrimination.
    - lazide 3y ago
      HR being openly discriminatory is only an issue if someone actually penalizes them for it. The DOL is openly requiring companies to discriminate (affirmative action), and ignoring 'desirable' discrimination claims (which is required for affirmative action to work in a down economy), so why should they care? And to be frank - did you sue them? Or try to sue them? Seems to be working no?
throwawaysleep 3y ago
> Photos really don't belong in hiring in the US. They don't legally or consciously belong in hiring in the US. Doesn't mean it may not be to your advantage to have one.
- appplication 3y ago
  Yes it is a fair take to say they shouldn’t have a role. It is a naive one to suggest they don’t. Unless you want to make hiring harder on yourself, put up a professional photo. You’re not going to change the world by not doing so, you’re only going to waste your own time.
avg_dev 3y ago
I am puzzled. I read the article and I don't see that. Did the article get updated, maybe?
- neilv 3y ago
  My mistake; I was quoting a different document, "An Engineering Leader’s Job Search Algorithm", linked from an HN comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39338314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39338314
Aurornis 3y ago
> 2. Photos really don't belong in hiring in the US. The author of the post is in Sweden, not the US. As weird as it sounds, profile photos are prominent features of resumes in many European countries. It shocked me when I first started hiring in our EU offices, but that's just the way it is. I was surprised because we've often been told so many different ways that Europe is ahead of the US in matters of discrimination, but then I got there and resumes were full of profile pictures and even discussion about their marital status. I had our recruiter over there start erasing these things from resumes and they thought I was crazy.
- bojan 3y ago
  The discrimination in Europe works slightly differently than in the US, as having a native sounding name is just as, or even more, important than having a "right" skin color. So to be certain you'll avoid discrimination, you'd need to omit both the photo and the name from the CV, and that's not common at all.
  - superhumanuser 3y ago
    Should we also hide the names of the universities we went to and the names of former employers we worked at?
    - dataflow 3y ago
      Confused, what are you implying?
      - superhumanuser 3y ago
        There's bias towards certain big name institutions. Perhaps we should prevent discrimination on this basis by omitting those references.
        lazide 3y ago
        Also, because those big name institutions have bias towards certain types of students - and train them to think/act in certain ways. It often works, which is why they do it.
imadierich 3y ago
[dead]
bitwize 3y ago
> Photos really don't belong in hiring in the US. Sounds like someone needs to reread Don Burleson's professional dress code tips: https://www.dba-oracle.com/dress_code.htm https://www.dba-oracle.com/dress_code.htm Presenting a polished, professional appearance makes a real difference to employers. They can and will legally fire you (or choose not to hire you) for failure to do so.
- tgaj 3y ago
  I think it's more a problem of visible disabilities or just not looking attractive, than of a dress code.
  - lazide 3y ago
    You're thinking of it from the 'should' (aka I wish) and employee perspective, not the competitive 'what do employers actually want' perspective. If employers want their numbers to match some stat, then of course they're going to optimize for that. Which if your picture doesn't match, that's a problem. For you. If employers have some pre-baked idea of what type of worker works for them, and getting things actually done matters to them (as compared to some diversity stat), then of course they're going to optimize for that. If your picture doesn't match, that's a problem. For you. And maybe them if they can't actually find what they want because of their own pre-conceptions, but I guarantee they'll be the last ones they blame. It takes a very open minded individual to look past their own preconceptions. Sometimes too open minded. In times of stress, people default to what they are most comfortable with. Now, if workers want that or not is up to them - most of the labor code is all about forcing employers to do things they don't want to do to protect themselves. Most of contract and penal code is employers/owners trying to protect themselves from things they don't want others to do to them.
TrackerFF 3y ago
At this point, having a realistic picture is more about weeding out the fake AI/ML generated users. It's crazy how many fake profiles and applicants there are out there, but luckily most use the same type of professional headshots made by some generative model.

by neilv 3y ago

Waterluvian 3y ago

I went through interview training and one of the reasons why they’re so adamant that résumés go into an automated parser was to strip photos and other info like that.

smileson2 3y ago
Yeah, on my end reviewing resume or when we did take-homes things like names and photos were always erased to prevent 'bias' We did interview and hire a lot more women and PoC than other firms I've worked with so I guess it works to some degree
- 4hg4ufxhy 3y ago
  Should you conduct the interview without camera and with a voicechanger?
  - marshray 3y ago
    Some US employers no longer conduct interviews at all for some positions.
    - imadierich 3y ago
      [dead]
    - lazide 3y ago
      That sounds entertaining for the hiring managers. I imagine firing someone incompetent must be super fun too in that situation.
  - neilv 3y ago
    We can't eliminate all unfair biases, but if we can reduce unfair biases preventing people from even getting to the interview, that's a win.
- gedy 3y ago
  This starts to sound a little kooky - if there's that much bias going around that we need to play games with hiding info from the interviewers, then how can they work effectively with this person if they can't be trusted?
  - lazide 3y ago
    You can’t.

willsmith72 3y ago

Yeah I was shocked by this as well moving from Australia to Germany, it's a euro thing. Some will even put "single" or "married" on their cv, though I'm told that's dying out

nielsole 3y ago
It used to be common to put in occupation of the parents as well.
Mydayyy 3y ago
From germany here. I removed the photo from my CV a few years ago. Never got asked about it during hiring. Obviously I don't have any numbers whether/how often I got sorted out due to that. But I hope the expectation to have a photo on your CV also dies out here.
- n_ary 3y ago
  I also hope that this dies out. While I used to put my photo as usual for years because this is how we do Lebenslauf, then one of my immigrant friend got severely discriminated(with clear evidence, guess the HR lady was new hire), so I started leaving my photo out in protest. While I got some issues for a while about “better knowing our colleague and avoid hiring scam(?)”, eventually this stopped after I got some experience. Now, if someone asks me for a photo or is concerned(one of my parents is immigrant background so I have a slightly hybrid name), I just tell them to know me better in person when I am in Office and they can take a photo with me when I meet them. That all being said, the photo was more of a cultural thing in the past, it was useful for identification and filing purposes as well. However, in modern times the practice stuck and gave ways to discrimination.
  - lazide 3y ago
    HR being openly discriminatory is only an issue if someone actually penalizes them for it. The DOL is openly requiring companies to discriminate (affirmative action), and ignoring 'desirable' discrimination claims (which is required for affirmative action to work in a down economy), so why should they care? And to be frank - did you sue them? Or try to sue them? Seems to be working no?

throwawaysleep 3y ago

> Photos really don't belong in hiring in the US. They don't legally or consciously belong in hiring in the US. Doesn't mean it may not be to your advantage to have one.

appplication 3y ago
Yes it is a fair take to say they shouldn’t have a role. It is a naive one to suggest they don’t. Unless you want to make hiring harder on yourself, put up a professional photo. You’re not going to change the world by not doing so, you’re only going to waste your own time.

avg_dev 3y ago

I am puzzled. I read the article and I don't see that. Did the article get updated, maybe?

neilv 3y ago
My mistake; I was quoting a different document, "An Engineering Leader’s Job Search Algorithm", linked from an HN comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39338314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39338314

Aurornis 3y ago

> 2. Photos really don't belong in hiring in the US. The author of the post is in Sweden, not the US. As weird as it sounds, profile photos are prominent features of resumes in many European countries. It shocked me when I first started hiring in our EU offices, but that's just the way it is. I was surprised because we've often been told so many different ways that Europe is ahead of the US in matters of discrimination, but then I got there and resumes were full of profile pictures and even discussion about their marital status. I had our recruiter over there start erasing these things from resumes and they thought I was crazy.

bojan 3y ago
The discrimination in Europe works slightly differently than in the US, as having a native sounding name is just as, or even more, important than having a "right" skin color. So to be certain you'll avoid discrimination, you'd need to omit both the photo and the name from the CV, and that's not common at all.
- superhumanuser 3y ago
  Should we also hide the names of the universities we went to and the names of former employers we worked at?
  - dataflow 3y ago
    Confused, what are you implying?
    - superhumanuser 3y ago
      There's bias towards certain big name institutions. Perhaps we should prevent discrimination on this basis by omitting those references.
      - lazide 3y ago
        Also, because those big name institutions have bias towards certain types of students - and train them to think/act in certain ways. It often works, which is why they do it.

imadierich 3y ago

[dead]

bitwize 3y ago

> Photos really don't belong in hiring in the US. Sounds like someone needs to reread Don Burleson's professional dress code tips: https://www.dba-oracle.com/dress_code.htm https://www.dba-oracle.com/dress_code.htm Presenting a polished, professional appearance makes a real difference to employers. They can and will legally fire you (or choose not to hire you) for failure to do so.

tgaj 3y ago
I think it's more a problem of visible disabilities or just not looking attractive, than of a dress code.
- lazide 3y ago
  You're thinking of it from the 'should' (aka I wish) and employee perspective, not the competitive 'what do employers actually want' perspective. If employers want their numbers to match some stat, then of course they're going to optimize for that. Which if your picture doesn't match, that's a problem. For you. If employers have some pre-baked idea of what type of worker works for them, and getting things actually done matters to them (as compared to some diversity stat), then of course they're going to optimize for that. If your picture doesn't match, that's a problem. For you. And maybe them if they can't actually find what they want because of their own pre-conceptions, but I guarantee they'll be the last ones they blame. It takes a very open minded individual to look past their own preconceptions. Sometimes too open minded. In times of stress, people default to what they are most comfortable with. Now, if workers want that or not is up to them - most of the labor code is all about forcing employers to do things they don't want to do to protect themselves. Most of contract and penal code is employers/owners trying to protect themselves from things they don't want others to do to them.

TrackerFF 3y ago

At this point, having a realistic picture is more about weeding out the fake AI/ML generated users. It's crazy how many fake profiles and applicants there are out there, but luckily most use the same type of professional headshots made by some generative model.