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What was the relationship then? In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? And they knew Luke was Anakin’s his son. Obi wan mentions Anakin being

What was the relationship then? In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? And they knew Luke was Anakin’s his son. Obi wan mentions Anakin being corrupted by Vader. And the fight at the end, Vader now the master, etc. Was it really still a question of Vader and Anakin were different people until the second movie came out?

mmustapic 3y ago
> What was the relationship then? In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? From a certain point of view.
Snild 3y ago
> In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? I don't think it is. At least not that I can remember.
dudinax 3y ago
This script is good evidence they made up the connection part way through Empire. Also, if Lucas already had it in mind for Star Wars, I doubt he'd have Obiwan straight up lie about it.
- pests 3y ago
  I don't even consider it a straight up lie. I know we have decades of this built into our culture, and its been basically ret-conned, but... "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father" I could still see Ben making this metaphor for the internal struggle Anakin dealt with, not wanting to reveal the truth in that setting.
  - nemo 3y ago
    Pretty sure it was as much a part of planning the first episode as his later decision to have Anakin build C3PO. The early Star Wars scripts and materials are all over the map, there was no plan. This script just makes that all the more clear.
  - binary132 3y ago
    I always assumed it was written this way on purpose and thought it was a cool moment. Oh well.
  - djur 3y ago
    And he's "named" Darth Vader; "Darth" being a title also didn't come until later. Obi-Wan calls him "Darth" like it's his given name.
- stevep98 3y ago
  But the "I am your father" wasn't in the shooting script anyway. The script said "Obi-Wan killed your father", and it was changed to "I am your father when James Earl Jones" said the line for the voice of Vader. Maybe it is that way in subsequent published scripts but not the original.
  - greedo 3y ago
    They didn't trust David Prowse, so the lines were altered in the shooting script. JEJ then recorded the actual lines.
  - ksherlock 3y ago
    Right... Lucas told Mark Hamill before that scene was filmed so he would ham up his reaction.
    - kevinmchugh 3y ago
      And also so that the secret wouldn't get out
      - matt-attack 3y ago
        Relevant: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ATcaQYh0wPU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ATcaQYh0wPU
canjobear 3y ago
Lucas only came up with the idea that Anakin = Vader after the original Star Wars was out, when he was revising the script for Empire. Before that we were supposed to take Ben Kenobi at face value when he said that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  Wow. So basically, if one line of dialog in A New Hope had been less ambiguous as it happened to be written... Vader wouldn't have been Anakin?
  - lupusreal 3y ago
    More likely it would just be left to the fans to come up with their own justifications for the retcon, like most other inconsistencies in Star Wars.
  - hgs3 3y ago
    I'd say the original already isn't ambiguous: Kenobi directly tells Luke that Vader murdered his Father. The "from a certain point of view" scene had to be added in ROTJ to explain away the retcon.
    - canjobear 3y ago
      Ben Kenobi does pause in a pregnant way right before delivering the fateful line. In a way that almost looks like he's thinking about how to hide something. It works perfectly with the later revelation.
      - ethbr1 3y ago
        For reference: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hFB16GCocfw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hFB16GCocfw It's crazy that essentially the entire Star Wars canon is built on one piece of dialog by Alec Guinness. (Not just Anakin/Vader, but the Force and the events around Order 66)
taejavu 3y ago
Yes, and I’m struggling to imagine why you think it is even implied that they could be the same person, from the first film alone. Could you explain further?

mmustapic 3y ago

> What was the relationship then? In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? From a certain point of view.

Snild 3y ago

> In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? I don't think it is. At least not that I can remember.

dudinax 3y ago

This script is good evidence they made up the connection part way through Empire. Also, if Lucas already had it in mind for Star Wars, I doubt he'd have Obiwan straight up lie about it.

pests 3y ago
I don't even consider it a straight up lie. I know we have decades of this built into our culture, and its been basically ret-conned, but... "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father" I could still see Ben making this metaphor for the internal struggle Anakin dealt with, not wanting to reveal the truth in that setting.
- nemo 3y ago
  Pretty sure it was as much a part of planning the first episode as his later decision to have Anakin build C3PO. The early Star Wars scripts and materials are all over the map, there was no plan. This script just makes that all the more clear.
- binary132 3y ago
  I always assumed it was written this way on purpose and thought it was a cool moment. Oh well.
- djur 3y ago
  And he's "named" Darth Vader; "Darth" being a title also didn't come until later. Obi-Wan calls him "Darth" like it's his given name.
stevep98 3y ago
But the "I am your father" wasn't in the shooting script anyway. The script said "Obi-Wan killed your father", and it was changed to "I am your father when James Earl Jones" said the line for the voice of Vader. Maybe it is that way in subsequent published scripts but not the original.
- greedo 3y ago
  They didn't trust David Prowse, so the lines were altered in the shooting script. JEJ then recorded the actual lines.
- ksherlock 3y ago
  Right... Lucas told Mark Hamill before that scene was filmed so he would ham up his reaction.
  - kevinmchugh 3y ago
    And also so that the secret wouldn't get out
    - matt-attack 3y ago
      Relevant: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ATcaQYh0wPU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ATcaQYh0wPU

canjobear 3y ago

Lucas only came up with the idea that Anakin = Vader after the original Star Wars was out, when he was revising the script for Empire. Before that we were supposed to take Ben Kenobi at face value when he said that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father.

ethbr1 3y ago
Wow. So basically, if one line of dialog in A New Hope had been less ambiguous as it happened to be written... Vader wouldn't have been Anakin?
- lupusreal 3y ago
  More likely it would just be left to the fans to come up with their own justifications for the retcon, like most other inconsistencies in Star Wars.
- hgs3 3y ago
  I'd say the original already isn't ambiguous: Kenobi directly tells Luke that Vader murdered his Father. The "from a certain point of view" scene had to be added in ROTJ to explain away the retcon.
  - canjobear 3y ago
    Ben Kenobi does pause in a pregnant way right before delivering the fateful line. In a way that almost looks like he's thinking about how to hide something. It works perfectly with the later revelation.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      For reference: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hFB16GCocfw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hFB16GCocfw It's crazy that essentially the entire Star Wars canon is built on one piece of dialog by Alec Guinness. (Not just Anakin/Vader, but the Force and the events around Order 66)

taejavu 3y ago

Yes, and I’m struggling to imagine why you think it is even implied that they could be the same person, from the first film alone. Could you explain further?