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Look on page 117 of the PDF (the paper says 113): > Vader: You're very good, Luke. But I'm twenty years older and stronger than you in the use of the Force. Yo

Look on page 117 of the PDF (the paper says 113): > Vader: You're very good, Luke. But I'm twenty years older and stronger than you in the use of the Force. You haven't a chance with me... any more than your father had. This draft was written before they came up with the idea that Vader could actually be Luke's father!

fbdab103 3y ago
How much of an original script survives to filming? I assume that huge swaths of dialog gets reworked as more people can workshop the scene and get a sense of characters/timing/whatever.
- cocacola1 3y ago
  It depends on the film. George Lucas was reworking dialogue and scenes daily while filming the original Star Wars but the overall movie should mostly be set in stone by that time. But big changes can happen. For example, Ben Kenobi was initially supposed to survive the battle with Vader. It wasn’t until filming was already underway that Lucas, at Marcia Lucas’s suggestion, decided to kill him off.
WalterBright 3y ago
"Vader" actually means "father"
- throw_m239339 3y ago
  > "Vader" actually means "father" In what language? Isn't it "Vater" in German?
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    Dutch is Vader. In German, it's Vater.
    - djur 3y ago
      Not with that pronunciation. The prequels (with "Darth Sidious") make the "invader" source clear.
      - WalterBright 3y ago
        Americans pronounce a lot of foreign words wrongly. Making up something 20 years after the fact is not compelling :-/
        djur 3y ago
        "Vader" = "father" is equally made up, considering that the character was not originally anyone's father. It's a fun coincidence, nothing more.
beebmam 3y ago
I love that the Star Wars Holiday Special was probably written before this, making it even more canon than what The Empire Strikes Back eventually became.
philwelch 3y ago
I believe the actual shooting script for ESB omitted Vader’s admission that he was Luke’s father; the replacement line was “No, Obi-Wan killed your father”. The actual line, “No, I am your father” was kept secret and only shared with the actors on set when they filmed that specific scene.
- philistine 3y ago
  Not all the actors. David Prowse, who played Darth Vader had no idea. Only Hamill knew. There were only four people who knew at that point. Lucas, Kasdan, Hamill and Kerschner.
saghm 3y ago
Honestly, what strikes me about this line isn't even that Vader isn't Luke's father, but how wordy he is. I imagine they didn't spend too much time on phrasing and instead just tried to capture the gist with the expectation of polishing later, but even with the James Earl Jones's trademark slow, menacing Vader drawl, this just feels like it would sound weirdly verbose coming from Vader, especially in the middle of a fight.
- kevingadd 3y ago
  As a writer it's not uncommon to have a separate person (sometimes an editor) trim down/punch up dialogue. Dialogue writing is basically a separate skill from prose or screenplay writing, though the best writers are good at it too.
- drewlesueur 3y ago
  "strikes", "polish"... great word choice here.
- caslon 3y ago
  Much of what you actually see in Empire is written by entirely different people. > George Lucas initially hired Leigh Brackett, the sci-fi novelist who also wrote screenplays for Howard Hawks—including The Big Sleep (1946)—to write the sequel to Star Wars (1977). Brackett died in March 1978 while the film was still in pre-production, though, and Lucas wasn't satisfied with her script. Lucas wrote the next draft himself, which established structure and twists close to the final film, but suffered from dialogue. When Kasdan delivered his script for Raiders, Lucas asked him to rewrite The Empire Strikes Back. Kasdan suggested he read Raiders first, but Lucas reportedly said: "If I hate Raiders, I'll call you up tomorrow and cancel this offer, but basically I get a feeling about people."[9] Brackett was a sci-fi author, Kasdan was a screenwriter by trade. Despite seeming like similar tasks, screenwriting and book-writing actually have pretty distinct skillsets in some ways.
  - nyrath 3y ago
    Leigh Brackett also wrote the screenplays for The Big Sleep (1946), Rio Bravo (1959), and The Long Goodbye (1973)
bluejekyll 3y ago
What was the relationship then? In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? And they knew Luke was Anakin’s his son. Obi wan mentions Anakin being corrupted by Vader. And the fight at the end, Vader now the master, etc. Was it really still a question of Vader and Anakin were different people until the second movie came out?
- mmustapic 3y ago
  > What was the relationship then? In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? From a certain point of view.
- Snild 3y ago
  > In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? I don't think it is. At least not that I can remember.
- dudinax 3y ago
  This script is good evidence they made up the connection part way through Empire. Also, if Lucas already had it in mind for Star Wars, I doubt he'd have Obiwan straight up lie about it.
  - pests 3y ago
    I don't even consider it a straight up lie. I know we have decades of this built into our culture, and its been basically ret-conned, but... "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father" I could still see Ben making this metaphor for the internal struggle Anakin dealt with, not wanting to reveal the truth in that setting.
    - nemo 3y ago
      Pretty sure it was as much a part of planning the first episode as his later decision to have Anakin build C3PO. The early Star Wars scripts and materials are all over the map, there was no plan. This script just makes that all the more clear.
cryptoz 3y ago
I haven't read the script but, couldn't that be interpreted the same way it would be in the movies today? That is, the idea that Vader 'killed' Anakin by converting him to the dark side; Anakin is gone and now Vader exists - so different that the identity is different.

fbdab103 3y ago

How much of an original script survives to filming? I assume that huge swaths of dialog gets reworked as more people can workshop the scene and get a sense of characters/timing/whatever.

cocacola1 3y ago
It depends on the film. George Lucas was reworking dialogue and scenes daily while filming the original Star Wars but the overall movie should mostly be set in stone by that time. But big changes can happen. For example, Ben Kenobi was initially supposed to survive the battle with Vader. It wasn’t until filming was already underway that Lucas, at Marcia Lucas’s suggestion, decided to kill him off.

WalterBright 3y ago

"Vader" actually means "father"

throw_m239339 3y ago
> "Vader" actually means "father" In what language? Isn't it "Vater" in German?
- WalterBright 3y ago
  Dutch is Vader. In German, it's Vater.
  - djur 3y ago
    Not with that pronunciation. The prequels (with "Darth Sidious") make the "invader" source clear.
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      Americans pronounce a lot of foreign words wrongly. Making up something 20 years after the fact is not compelling :-/
      - djur 3y ago
        "Vader" = "father" is equally made up, considering that the character was not originally anyone's father. It's a fun coincidence, nothing more.

beebmam 3y ago

I love that the Star Wars Holiday Special was probably written before this, making it even more canon than what The Empire Strikes Back eventually became.

philwelch 3y ago

I believe the actual shooting script for ESB omitted Vader’s admission that he was Luke’s father; the replacement line was “No, Obi-Wan killed your father”. The actual line, “No, I am your father” was kept secret and only shared with the actors on set when they filmed that specific scene.

philistine 3y ago
Not all the actors. David Prowse, who played Darth Vader had no idea. Only Hamill knew. There were only four people who knew at that point. Lucas, Kasdan, Hamill and Kerschner.

saghm 3y ago

Honestly, what strikes me about this line isn't even that Vader isn't Luke's father, but how wordy he is. I imagine they didn't spend too much time on phrasing and instead just tried to capture the gist with the expectation of polishing later, but even with the James Earl Jones's trademark slow, menacing Vader drawl, this just feels like it would sound weirdly verbose coming from Vader, especially in the middle of a fight.

kevingadd 3y ago
As a writer it's not uncommon to have a separate person (sometimes an editor) trim down/punch up dialogue. Dialogue writing is basically a separate skill from prose or screenplay writing, though the best writers are good at it too.
drewlesueur 3y ago
"strikes", "polish"... great word choice here.
caslon 3y ago
Much of what you actually see in Empire is written by entirely different people. > George Lucas initially hired Leigh Brackett, the sci-fi novelist who also wrote screenplays for Howard Hawks—including The Big Sleep (1946)—to write the sequel to Star Wars (1977). Brackett died in March 1978 while the film was still in pre-production, though, and Lucas wasn't satisfied with her script. Lucas wrote the next draft himself, which established structure and twists close to the final film, but suffered from dialogue. When Kasdan delivered his script for Raiders, Lucas asked him to rewrite The Empire Strikes Back. Kasdan suggested he read Raiders first, but Lucas reportedly said: "If I hate Raiders, I'll call you up tomorrow and cancel this offer, but basically I get a feeling about people."[9] Brackett was a sci-fi author, Kasdan was a screenwriter by trade. Despite seeming like similar tasks, screenwriting and book-writing actually have pretty distinct skillsets in some ways.
- nyrath 3y ago
  Leigh Brackett also wrote the screenplays for The Big Sleep (1946), Rio Bravo (1959), and The Long Goodbye (1973)

bluejekyll 3y ago

What was the relationship then? In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? And they knew Luke was Anakin’s his son. Obi wan mentions Anakin being corrupted by Vader. And the fight at the end, Vader now the master, etc. Was it really still a question of Vader and Anakin were different people until the second movie came out?

mmustapic 3y ago
> What was the relationship then? In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? From a certain point of view.
Snild 3y ago
> In a New Hope, it’s known that Anakin was Vader, right? I don't think it is. At least not that I can remember.
dudinax 3y ago
This script is good evidence they made up the connection part way through Empire. Also, if Lucas already had it in mind for Star Wars, I doubt he'd have Obiwan straight up lie about it.
- pests 3y ago
  I don't even consider it a straight up lie. I know we have decades of this built into our culture, and its been basically ret-conned, but... "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father" I could still see Ben making this metaphor for the internal struggle Anakin dealt with, not wanting to reveal the truth in that setting.
  - nemo 3y ago
    Pretty sure it was as much a part of planning the first episode as his later decision to have Anakin build C3PO. The early Star Wars scripts and materials are all over the map, there was no plan. This script just makes that all the more clear.

cryptoz 3y ago

I haven't read the script but, couldn't that be interpreted the same way it would be in the movies today? That is, the idea that Vader 'killed' Anakin by converting him to the dark side; Anakin is gone and now Vader exists - so different that the identity is different.