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And yet Wayland still does not work on my laptop (tons of graphical glitches, unbearable lag when hooked up to external 4k monitors) whereas X works fine. I’ve
by School-Cotton 3y ago
And yet Wayland still does not work on my laptop (tons of graphical glitches, unbearable lag when hooked up to external 4k monitors) whereas X works fine.
I’ve been hearing for years that Wayland is the future and X is deprecated but it doesn’t match my reality.
- sph 3y agoBlame NVIDIA, because on Intel and AMD it's been smooth sailing for a while now.
- uecker 3y agoThe sad thing is that X barely sees development and will die if nobody steps up to maintain it. I hope somebody does, I like it much more than Wayland (not monolithic, first-class network transparency, extendable, ...)
- oblio 3y ago> first-class network transparency This keeps being touted but it's the only design of its kind, none of the other OSes has this design and newer UIs also don't follow this design. X is an evolutionary dead end, at best a local maxima. Also, this functionality is used extremely rarely in my experience, 99% of remote driving happens with separate, dedicated, software.
- duskwuff 3y agoX11 isn't even very good at network transparency. It's overly chatty, especially when dealing with things like pointer events, and it's horribly inefficient at displaying truecolor images, which make up the entirety of most applications nowadays. If a network-transparent display server were a goal, a modern design could do much better.
- uecker 3y agoIt works perfectly for me. Inefficiencies could easily be fixed by extensions if necessary. The main thing which is missing in practice is latency hiding. But this is supported by the X protocol just fine, only toolkits were never changed to support it. Design-wise it is exactly right: A generic remote buffer management protocol.
- oblio 3y ago> But this is supported by the X protocol just fine, only toolkits were never changed to support it. When we've had toolkits for 30+ years and this hasn't happened, that's called a hint. Nobody* cares.
- uecker 3y agoRight, it works well even without it.
- duskwuff 3y ago> Design-wise it is exactly right: A generic remote buffer management protocol. That's probably a better description of VNC (aka. RFB, "remote framebuffer"). X11 is far from generic; it has a bunch of baked-in concepts for things like windows, named colors, bitmap fonts, selections, a screensaver, and an entire drawing subsystem that's only used by a few legacy apps nowadays. A glance through the protocol, with a particular eye to the "Requests" section, may be enlightening: https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.7/doc/xproto/x11protocol.html https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.7/doc/xproto/x11protocol.ht... For comparison, here's VNC. There's some extensions for more efficient ways to send bitmaps over the wire, but the essential concepts of the protocol are unchanged. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6143 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6143
- uecker 3y agoThe non-generic special parts that were needed in the past can easily be ignored. At its core it is a generic buffer management protocol and it obviously has all the parts for generic buffer management.
- School-Cotton 3y agoExtremely rarely? I use it all the time. Just yesterday I wanted to develop some code on my (faster) desktop, while at a coffee shop nearby. I could have set up something like TRAMP I suppose, but just running emacs on my desktop and displaying it on my laptop was much easier.
- oblio 3y agoYou are rare :-)
- uecker 3y agogaslightning...
- oblio 3y agoNo, it's called reality. X is going the way of the dodo despite being the former dominant GUI framework on what was at a certain point the dominant workstation OS. That's how good and used (and valued!) this core functionality is. https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/
- jeroenhd 3y agoYour laptop's buggy drivers don't really change that several major GUI projects are moving towards Wayland first, X11 second. The result will be that all the "oops we didn't test this on Wayland" bugs that Wayland users have been facing the past few years will become "oops we didn't test this on X11" bugs. Software being deprecated doesn't mean it just stops working. You can use the programs and the versions that you've installed right now and continue to use them for decades to come, but if you upgrade to newer versions you may start losing out on new features or run into bugs if you stick to X.org.
- superkuh 3y agoSeveral moving GUI projects are moving towards Waylands first. There's no such thing as wayland because the standard reference implementation does not come close to feature parity with X11. So basic features like, say, mouse/keyboard sharing, have to be implemented in non-standards external libraries (ie, libei). Some Waylands will use the libraries, some will not. It leads to massive incompatibility in features between ostensibly "Wayland" based DEs depending on which wayland is used. In practice there is no "Wayland", there are only feature incompatible Waylands almost as different from each other as they are different from X11. So... these mentioned software projects are not all targeting the same thing. If anything X11 as the full featured reference implemenation everyone uses still gets more attention that any one of the waylands.
- mort96 3y agoIf you wrote this comment in 2020 you might've had a point, but the Wayland world has converged a whole lot in the past few years.
- superkuh 3y agoI gave a concrete example in my post of how waylands remain fragmented in 2024. Try to share mouse/keyboard between computers using sway. They have a strong position against libei for reasons but also fail to implement the functionality natively in sway as they feel it's outside the role a wayland should play.
- exe34 3y agoWayland is like fusion, it'll be ready in 20 years!
- beebeepka 3y agonvidia gpu?