17 ms·

I was born in the early '60s and I have no children. Economical concerns are surely part of the equation but I also suspect that in Western Culture adults tend

by Pamar 3y ago

I was born in the early '60s and I have no children. Economical concerns are surely part of the equation but I also suspect that in Western Culture adults tend to have a more individualistic stance and this could also be a factor. What I mean is: as soon as we start getting some sort of economic independence we tend to focus on our own hobbies, travels, interests. Those of us who are lucky enough in being in a long lasting relationship would hopefully do this together... but we are always aware that the moment a child enters our life, we can forget most of it, at least for a decade.

ericd 3y ago
I feel like this is a common misconception about having kids, that your life somehow ends, and you have to give up everything you care about in favor of them. We’ve been traveling with our kids since the first was 4 months old, and it’s been great fun introducing them to our hobbies, and doing them with them. Seeing them pick this stuff up and in some ways surpass us is incredibly gratifying.
- nunez 3y ago
  i'm not a parent, but from observing the parents i know, i think you're incredibly lucky to be able to travel with your child and have it not be a burden. the norm seems to be "add an hour and hundreds of dollars for every activity you do with kids, and add unbounded levels of stress if you're the mom"
  - ericd 3y ago
    We’re certainly very lucky in many ways, but besides the financial aspect, a lot of it is just practicing it with the kids and getting them used to it, which is the case with many other things in their lives, and part of it is changing our own expectations about traveling. We go a lot slower than we used to, with more and longer stops on road trips, and give ourselves a lot more time/wiggle room at each place. If we need to drive 9 hours, we might break that into three days, and visit places that are about 3 hours apart. If we fly somewhere and it’s long, we try to go to immediately go to a hotel as close as possible to the airport so that we can all conk out if we need to. When we’re not stressed about timetables, it’s much easier for us all to have a good time. We don’t spend so much of our time at the destination, but that’s fine, there’s lots of cool stuff to see on the way, generally. We keep our schedule at the destination similarly sparse. Also, we take turns with everything, it’s not on mom. Don’t know how she’d handle that on her own. It takes work and energy, and we do some things differently than we used to, we’ve had to relearn some things, but it’s not putting the fun parts of life on pause for 10 years. You adapt, and still have a lot of fun, and you get to see these little people learn and grow, which is amazing. Ours are in a pun-making phase, which is hilarious and terrible.
    - nunez 3y ago
      > We’re certainly very lucky in many ways, but besides the financial aspect, Your observations are valid, but you can't just sidestep the financial aspect of it, my dude. This is, like, 70% of the hardship of having kids from what I've found. Like this: > If we need to drive 9 hours, we might break that into three days, and visit places that are about 3 hours apart. If we fly somewhere and it’s long, we try to go to immediately go to a hotel as close as possible to the airport so that we can all conk out if we need to. Is straight up not possible for a family of 3 or more with a total household income of less than $150k in the US. On-premise airport hotels that aren't complete chaos are usually $200/night and many people in the US get hardly any vacation time (which is a whole other problem in its own right).
- silverquiet 3y ago
  If one of your kids required extensive medical care for some reason or other, would it put a cramp in your lifestyle?
  - ericd 3y ago
    I’m sure, but that’s true of one of us requiring extensive medical care, too. Living is risky.
    - silverquiet 3y ago
      I'm quite aware of the risk; I have a rare childhood disorder that will likely require ever more medical care as I age. Trying to keep my own ass covered by medical insurance is enough challenge for me.
      - ericd 3y ago
        Sorry you’ve had to go through that. But rare childhood disorders are rare, right? Most kids are healthy, so most parents don’t have to cover that. Many people seem to think that having kids means an end to their having fun, my point is that that’s not a given. It’s not to say that everyone is in a good position to have kids.
        silverquiet 3y ago
        Mine is indeed quite rare; I'd put money on you never having heard of it because the average doctor barely has. The thing is I know tons of people with some rare condition or other; collectively it seems rare conditions are common. I've personally seen some truly heinous conditions affect children; far worse than what I went through. Certainly there are no givens, to borrow another's HN comment - kids are like a reverse lottery ticket. > It’s not to say that everyone is in a good position to have kids. Yes, I'd say that it's up to each individual to determine that, and it seems that more and more are deciding that they are not.
- Pamar 3y ago
  yes, but I do not think this is something that people really discusses rationally, either. I.e. I doubt that couples who decide to go childless sit down and say "listen, if we have children our current life is over, just look at Jack and Laura - they disappeared from the Lindy classes and had to cancel their spa subscription". It is probably both a subconscious thing that - along with other factors - will make you postpone the decision until it is either too late, or your spouse somehow puts you in front of an ultimatum. As I said in another message I have living proof that things can work out fine among relatives and friends both, so I am sure that it could be done. Neither me nor my MSO (Most Significant Other) were really into the idea of having children though, so we passed.
- jeffrallen 3y ago
  It's not a misconception if you choose your family style to be "prioritize time with kids and follow their interests". To implement that in our family meant adjusting our budget to allow one parent to stay at home. Adjusting our budget like that had consequences on our previous hobbies of travels, etc. C'est la vie, and la vie est belle.
redrove 3y ago
We’re child free (and intend to remain as such) and in our 30s, to be honest we do wonder what it’ll be like in 30 years. I’ve never wanted children (vehemently so) but my SO needed some convincing and it’s something I struggle with, I’m not sure if it’s really what she wants or my desires are just too strong. We’ve had this conversation between us of course and she’s not really sure either, she thinks she’ll be fine though. I’d love to hear your perspective. Do you feel like you’ve accomplished more than your peers? Led a more fulfilling and liberating life that allowed you to focus on yourselves? Or did that get old past age 40?
- Pamar 3y ago
  "Do you feel like you’ve accomplished more than your peers? Led a more fulfilling and liberating life that allowed you to focus on yourselves? Or did that get old past age 40?" I often feel that I did not manage to accomplish enough, personally. But: - I know people who are immensely more affluent than me (high school fellows) who did not have any child, either, and did not need to work. For me they accomplished even less than me. - On the other hand, both my sister (who is 3 years older and has a son) and another friend of mine (former colleague) I would say made good use of their time and resources, because they lived what to me looks like a full life, managed to pursuit their interests, cultivate hobbies etc... and also raised a decent human adult on top, which is quite an achievement in itself. What I am trying to say is "if I had won scientific or sport prizes or written a successful book... maybe I could say this would have been impossible if I had to take care of one (or more probably more than one) child". And I cannot even say that I decided to not have children because I was focused on winning a Nobel (or developing my startup, or become a renowned martial artist...) and yet EVEN WITHOUT THE CHILD I failed for some other reason. I have a normal life, some stuff I did may seem huge to others (assuming they share some of my interests) but while I can dream of having the money of my former schoolmate and say "boy, what I could have done if I were in his place" I am pretty sure that nobody is thinking "wow, if I had lived a childen-free adulthood like Pamar...". I am not regretting it (maybe I'll soon do when it is time to retire, will keep you posted) but I would never say to anyone "if you want to live your life to the fullest, like me, forget having children", either.

by Pamar 3y ago

ericd 3y ago

I feel like this is a common misconception about having kids, that your life somehow ends, and you have to give up everything you care about in favor of them. We’ve been traveling with our kids since the first was 4 months old, and it’s been great fun introducing them to our hobbies, and doing them with them. Seeing them pick this stuff up and in some ways surpass us is incredibly gratifying.

nunez 3y ago
i'm not a parent, but from observing the parents i know, i think you're incredibly lucky to be able to travel with your child and have it not be a burden. the norm seems to be "add an hour and hundreds of dollars for every activity you do with kids, and add unbounded levels of stress if you're the mom"
- ericd 3y ago
  We’re certainly very lucky in many ways, but besides the financial aspect, a lot of it is just practicing it with the kids and getting them used to it, which is the case with many other things in their lives, and part of it is changing our own expectations about traveling. We go a lot slower than we used to, with more and longer stops on road trips, and give ourselves a lot more time/wiggle room at each place. If we need to drive 9 hours, we might break that into three days, and visit places that are about 3 hours apart. If we fly somewhere and it’s long, we try to go to immediately go to a hotel as close as possible to the airport so that we can all conk out if we need to. When we’re not stressed about timetables, it’s much easier for us all to have a good time. We don’t spend so much of our time at the destination, but that’s fine, there’s lots of cool stuff to see on the way, generally. We keep our schedule at the destination similarly sparse. Also, we take turns with everything, it’s not on mom. Don’t know how she’d handle that on her own. It takes work and energy, and we do some things differently than we used to, we’ve had to relearn some things, but it’s not putting the fun parts of life on pause for 10 years. You adapt, and still have a lot of fun, and you get to see these little people learn and grow, which is amazing. Ours are in a pun-making phase, which is hilarious and terrible.
  - nunez 3y ago
    > We’re certainly very lucky in many ways, but besides the financial aspect, Your observations are valid, but you can't just sidestep the financial aspect of it, my dude. This is, like, 70% of the hardship of having kids from what I've found. Like this: > If we need to drive 9 hours, we might break that into three days, and visit places that are about 3 hours apart. If we fly somewhere and it’s long, we try to go to immediately go to a hotel as close as possible to the airport so that we can all conk out if we need to. Is straight up not possible for a family of 3 or more with a total household income of less than $150k in the US. On-premise airport hotels that aren't complete chaos are usually $200/night and many people in the US get hardly any vacation time (which is a whole other problem in its own right).
silverquiet 3y ago
If one of your kids required extensive medical care for some reason or other, would it put a cramp in your lifestyle?
- ericd 3y ago
  I’m sure, but that’s true of one of us requiring extensive medical care, too. Living is risky.
  - silverquiet 3y ago
    I'm quite aware of the risk; I have a rare childhood disorder that will likely require ever more medical care as I age. Trying to keep my own ass covered by medical insurance is enough challenge for me.
    - ericd 3y ago
      Sorry you’ve had to go through that. But rare childhood disorders are rare, right? Most kids are healthy, so most parents don’t have to cover that. Many people seem to think that having kids means an end to their having fun, my point is that that’s not a given. It’s not to say that everyone is in a good position to have kids.
      - silverquiet 3y ago
        Mine is indeed quite rare; I'd put money on you never having heard of it because the average doctor barely has. The thing is I know tons of people with some rare condition or other; collectively it seems rare conditions are common. I've personally seen some truly heinous conditions affect children; far worse than what I went through. Certainly there are no givens, to borrow another's HN comment - kids are like a reverse lottery ticket. > It’s not to say that everyone is in a good position to have kids. Yes, I'd say that it's up to each individual to determine that, and it seems that more and more are deciding that they are not.
Pamar 3y ago
yes, but I do not think this is something that people really discusses rationally, either. I.e. I doubt that couples who decide to go childless sit down and say "listen, if we have children our current life is over, just look at Jack and Laura - they disappeared from the Lindy classes and had to cancel their spa subscription". It is probably both a subconscious thing that - along with other factors - will make you postpone the decision until it is either too late, or your spouse somehow puts you in front of an ultimatum. As I said in another message I have living proof that things can work out fine among relatives and friends both, so I am sure that it could be done. Neither me nor my MSO (Most Significant Other) were really into the idea of having children though, so we passed.
jeffrallen 3y ago
It's not a misconception if you choose your family style to be "prioritize time with kids and follow their interests". To implement that in our family meant adjusting our budget to allow one parent to stay at home. Adjusting our budget like that had consequences on our previous hobbies of travels, etc. C'est la vie, and la vie est belle.

redrove 3y ago

We’re child free (and intend to remain as such) and in our 30s, to be honest we do wonder what it’ll be like in 30 years. I’ve never wanted children (vehemently so) but my SO needed some convincing and it’s something I struggle with, I’m not sure if it’s really what she wants or my desires are just too strong. We’ve had this conversation between us of course and she’s not really sure either, she thinks she’ll be fine though. I’d love to hear your perspective. Do you feel like you’ve accomplished more than your peers? Led a more fulfilling and liberating life that allowed you to focus on yourselves? Or did that get old past age 40?

Pamar 3y ago
"Do you feel like you’ve accomplished more than your peers? Led a more fulfilling and liberating life that allowed you to focus on yourselves? Or did that get old past age 40?" I often feel that I did not manage to accomplish enough, personally. But: - I know people who are immensely more affluent than me (high school fellows) who did not have any child, either, and did not need to work. For me they accomplished even less than me. - On the other hand, both my sister (who is 3 years older and has a son) and another friend of mine (former colleague) I would say made good use of their time and resources, because they lived what to me looks like a full life, managed to pursuit their interests, cultivate hobbies etc... and also raised a decent human adult on top, which is quite an achievement in itself. What I am trying to say is "if I had won scientific or sport prizes or written a successful book... maybe I could say this would have been impossible if I had to take care of one (or more probably more than one) child". And I cannot even say that I decided to not have children because I was focused on winning a Nobel (or developing my startup, or become a renowned martial artist...) and yet EVEN WITHOUT THE CHILD I failed for some other reason. I have a normal life, some stuff I did may seem huge to others (assuming they share some of my interests) but while I can dream of having the money of my former schoolmate and say "boy, what I could have done if I were in his place" I am pretty sure that nobody is thinking "wow, if I had lived a childen-free adulthood like Pamar...". I am not regretting it (maybe I'll soon do when it is time to retire, will keep you posted) but I would never say to anyone "if you want to live your life to the fullest, like me, forget having children", either.