3 ms·

Is... this sealioning? It's one of the easiest things to find endless examples of. I won't assume you are arguing in bad faith here, so, what have you done in a

Is... this sealioning? It's one of the easiest things to find endless examples of. I won't assume you are arguing in bad faith here, so, what have you done in an attempt to find the answer to that question?

deleted 3y ago
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freedomben 3y ago
Thank you, and no this is not sealioning. Every thing I found was related to abortion in some way, which is a little more nuanced than just general access to contraceptives like condoms or birth control pills. GP (who I asked the question to) seems to agree with me that abortion isn't quite the same as "contraceptives": > Conservatives love the idea of limiting access to contraception and abortion It's obvious that Conservatives are mostly against abortion, but what about contraception in general? Are there some non-fringe Conservatives that are coming out in favor of legal restrictions on condoms or birth control pills or similar?
- okamiueru 3y ago
  Did you see the link someone suggested: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/117-2022/h385 https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/117-2022/h385 ? A lot of things in politics can be murky. US republican votes on certain issues, is not one of them. If this stuff is obvious to me, and I don't even live there, I have to wonder how it is you can be so under-informed to genuinely think that Republican legislators are not against the restriction of contraception.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    > If this stuff is obvious to me, and I don't even live there, I have to wonder how it is you can be so under-informed to genuinely think that Republican legislators are not against the restriction of contraception. If this stuff is obvious to you, and you don't even live here, then perhaps you're oversimplifying the issue and making some unsubstantiated conclusions. What are some of the arguments against the bill that you evaluated before you concluded that they "love the idea of limiting access to contraception?" Did you actually look at those arguments before you concluded that there couldn't possibly be any other reason for opposing the bill than that they love limiting access? I would agree that there probably are some of them who do want to limit access, but the original claim of "Conservatives love the idea of limiting access to contraception" needs a lot more substantiation than what we've been given, and clearly has burden of proof on it.
    - okamiueru 3y ago
      Why is it so hard for you to believe that Republicans are against contraception? In the House, it was voted for by 100% of Democrats, and voted against by 96% of Republicans. The text, in full, if you want to read it is here: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/hr8373/text https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/hr8373/text It's not very long. I've read it. It is the answer to what you want to know, straight from the horses mouth. There is no uncertainty or middle-man telling you how to interpret things. Just read it, and then consider that 96% of Republicans did not wish for that bill to go to congress. You can then try to surmise what plausible reasoning they might have had to object. Just be somewhat critical, otherwise you'll just reaffirm what you already wanted to believe. Don't know what else I can suggest on this matter.
      - freedomben 3y ago
        > Why is it so hard for you to believe that Republicans are against contraception? Because I try very, very hard not to believe things without evidence, and I haven't seen any evidence yet. From my sibling comment on this law, this bill would have guaranteed the right to an abortion because the way they define contraceptive includes abortion. This then seems like evidence that Conservatives love the idea of restricting abortion (which they absolutely do). It is a fallacy of composition to say they favor restricting contraceptives. If you do that, you may as well broaden the category more and say they love restricting health care, or that they love to restrict free market transactions, though such is clearly not warranted because generally speaking conservatives hate the idea of restricting free market transactions (unless they're jailing people simply for ingesting plants (an allusion to the war on drugs, which they definitely seem to love, but I digress)).
        otterley 3y ago
        > From my sibling comment on this law, this bill would have guaranteed the right to an abortion because the way they define contraceptive includes abortion Nonsense. The two terms are clearly defined in the bill and neither of them are defined as any acts, drugs, or devices that would take place or be utilized after conception (i.e., pregnancy). (1) Contraception The term contraception means an action taken to prevent pregnancy, including the use of contraceptives or fertility-awareness based methods, and sterilization procedures. (2) Contraceptive The term "contraceptive" means any drug, device, or biological product intended for use in the prevention of pregnancy, whether specifically intended to prevent pregnancy or for other health needs, that is legally marketed under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, such as oral contraceptives, long-acting reversible contraceptives, emergency contraceptives, internal and external condoms, injectables, vaginal barrier methods, transdermal patches, and vaginal rings, or other contraceptives.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

freedomben 3y ago

Thank you, and no this is not sealioning. Every thing I found was related to abortion in some way, which is a little more nuanced than just general access to contraceptives like condoms or birth control pills. GP (who I asked the question to) seems to agree with me that abortion isn't quite the same as "contraceptives": > Conservatives love the idea of limiting access to contraception and abortion It's obvious that Conservatives are mostly against abortion, but what about contraception in general? Are there some non-fringe Conservatives that are coming out in favor of legal restrictions on condoms or birth control pills or similar?

okamiueru 3y ago
Did you see the link someone suggested: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/117-2022/h385 https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/117-2022/h385 ? A lot of things in politics can be murky. US republican votes on certain issues, is not one of them. If this stuff is obvious to me, and I don't even live there, I have to wonder how it is you can be so under-informed to genuinely think that Republican legislators are not against the restriction of contraception.
- freedomben 3y ago
  > If this stuff is obvious to me, and I don't even live there, I have to wonder how it is you can be so under-informed to genuinely think that Republican legislators are not against the restriction of contraception. If this stuff is obvious to you, and you don't even live here, then perhaps you're oversimplifying the issue and making some unsubstantiated conclusions. What are some of the arguments against the bill that you evaluated before you concluded that they "love the idea of limiting access to contraception?" Did you actually look at those arguments before you concluded that there couldn't possibly be any other reason for opposing the bill than that they love limiting access? I would agree that there probably are some of them who do want to limit access, but the original claim of "Conservatives love the idea of limiting access to contraception" needs a lot more substantiation than what we've been given, and clearly has burden of proof on it.
  - okamiueru 3y ago
    Why is it so hard for you to believe that Republicans are against contraception? In the House, it was voted for by 100% of Democrats, and voted against by 96% of Republicans. The text, in full, if you want to read it is here: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/hr8373/text https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/hr8373/text It's not very long. I've read it. It is the answer to what you want to know, straight from the horses mouth. There is no uncertainty or middle-man telling you how to interpret things. Just read it, and then consider that 96% of Republicans did not wish for that bill to go to congress. You can then try to surmise what plausible reasoning they might have had to object. Just be somewhat critical, otherwise you'll just reaffirm what you already wanted to believe. Don't know what else I can suggest on this matter.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      > Why is it so hard for you to believe that Republicans are against contraception? Because I try very, very hard not to believe things without evidence, and I haven't seen any evidence yet. From my sibling comment on this law, this bill would have guaranteed the right to an abortion because the way they define contraceptive includes abortion. This then seems like evidence that Conservatives love the idea of restricting abortion (which they absolutely do). It is a fallacy of composition to say they favor restricting contraceptives. If you do that, you may as well broaden the category more and say they love restricting health care, or that they love to restrict free market transactions, though such is clearly not warranted because generally speaking conservatives hate the idea of restricting free market transactions (unless they're jailing people simply for ingesting plants (an allusion to the war on drugs, which they definitely seem to love, but I digress)).
      - otterley 3y ago
        > From my sibling comment on this law, this bill would have guaranteed the right to an abortion because the way they define contraceptive includes abortion Nonsense. The two terms are clearly defined in the bill and neither of them are defined as any acts, drugs, or devices that would take place or be utilized after conception (i.e., pregnancy). (1) Contraception The term contraception means an action taken to prevent pregnancy, including the use of contraceptives or fertility-awareness based methods, and sterilization procedures. (2) Contraceptive The term "contraceptive" means any drug, device, or biological product intended for use in the prevention of pregnancy, whether specifically intended to prevent pregnancy or for other health needs, that is legally marketed under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, such as oral contraceptives, long-acting reversible contraceptives, emergency contraceptives, internal and external condoms, injectables, vaginal barrier methods, transdermal patches, and vaginal rings, or other contraceptives.