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It’s not that simple. Birth rates are also down in European countries where having a child is not a significant financial burden. Here’s an interesting recent

by pavlov 3y ago

It’s not that simple. Birth rates are also down in European countries where having a child is not a significant financial burden. Here’s an interesting recent interview on the topic with a leading Finnish demographer: (Financial Times, paywall) https://www.ft.com/content/500c0fb7-a04a-4f87-9b93-bf65045b9401 https://www.ft.com/content/500c0fb7-a04a-4f87-9b93-bf65045b9... Twenty years ago, Finland appeared to have it all. The birth rate was rising and the proportion of women in the labour force was high. Policymakers from around the world, including the UK and east Asia, came to learn about the Nordic model behind it: world class maternity care; generous parental leave; a right to pre-school childcare. But maybe they got it wrong. Despite all the support offered to parents, Finland’s fertility rate has fallen nearly a third since 2010. It is now below the UK’s, where the social safety net is more limited, and only slightly above Italy’s, where traditional gender roles persevere. “The strange thing with fertility is nobody really knows what’s going on. The policy responses are untried because it’s a new situation. It’s not primarily driven by economics or family policies. It’s something cultural, psychological, biological, cognitive.” At the Family Federation, Rotkirch oversees a unique series of surveys, which ask young people not just how many children they are planning to have, but how many they would ideally like to have. Her findings suggest that children do not fit into many millennials’ life plans. Once it was a sacrifice not to have children; now starting a family means sacrificing independence. “In most societies, having children was a cornerstone of adulthood. Now it’s something you have if you already have everything else. It becomes the capstone.”

Longhanks 3y ago
> European countries where having a child is not a significant financial burden I'm sorry, but which part of Europe would that be? People cannot afford a house and rents are going up like crazy, energy is expensive, taxes are high..?
- pavlov 3y ago
  Europe certainly isn’t uniform. The story I linked is about Finland. Here rents are stagnant or down. Energy prices are much more reasonable and predictable after a 1,600 MW nuclear plant came online last year. The new government has even made tax cuts. But the overall trend of shrinking fertility is unmistakable over a substantially longer period than just the past few years. There isn’t a direct link to the economy, as the Finnish demographic researcher explains in the interview I linked.
ane 3y ago
I would think that parenthood has now become a choice that many young people no longer want
shakow 3y ago
> European countries where having a child is not a significant financial burden. Beg your pardon? Have you seen the price of real estate/child care/energy/... in Europe?
- pavlov 3y ago
  I have two children. I live in Finland and previously we lived in New York. The cost of having and raising a child in Finland is minimal compared to the U.S.
  - shakow 3y ago
    1. You're comparing with one of the most expensive city in the US; how would it be in e.g. Rapid City or Cincinnati? 2. That's cool for Finland, but Finland is not necessarily representative of Europe as a whole; 3. And even though, ‶better than the US for a someone who's socially high enough to be able to work in NY″ is probably not representative of the average Finn, and still does not make it ‶great″.
SXX 3y ago
> Birth rates are also down in European countries where having a child is not a significant financial burden. I dont know about for whole EU, but I have friends in Germany / Spain and even people who are both working on some middle IT positions can hardly afford 2 bedroom appartment and a car after taxes. Situation is much worse in poorer countries like Poland or expensive one like Switzerland. Also I lived in UK and have family there. It's not quite EU, but rich country nontheless. And a lot people struggle there just to pay their mortage because with high interest rates their repayments also spiked almost 2x. Friends of mine are on high IT salaries that when average Joe with non-IT offline job making 30% less money. And job market is brutal there too - if you lose your job it's possible to find new one, but you'll land on lower salary.
CogitoCogito 3y ago
Was the actual purpose of Finland's policies to support parents or to increase overall fertility? I've always considered similar policies' goal to be supporting the parents meaning that a declining birthrate wouldn't mean the "got it wrong", it would simply mean fewer people want kids. As long as those that do receive support, I'd call the system a success.
themaninthedark 3y ago
Thank you for posting this, I went looking as soon as I saw the first reply to the topic saying the reason was money. I think I read an article about Korea that attributed the precipitous drop in birthrate to an advertising campaign that equated children to being a burden in order to lower what was at the time a very high birthrate. To my mind, the most likely reason is that for most people having kids is not a priority. Need more money, worried about climate change/terrorism/fear-in-vogue, etc. I have two kids, they were born when I was in my 30's. I wish that I could have had them earlier...you are able to recover more when you are younger.

by pavlov 3y ago

Longhanks 3y ago

> European countries where having a child is not a significant financial burden I'm sorry, but which part of Europe would that be? People cannot afford a house and rents are going up like crazy, energy is expensive, taxes are high..?

pavlov 3y ago
Europe certainly isn’t uniform. The story I linked is about Finland. Here rents are stagnant or down. Energy prices are much more reasonable and predictable after a 1,600 MW nuclear plant came online last year. The new government has even made tax cuts. But the overall trend of shrinking fertility is unmistakable over a substantially longer period than just the past few years. There isn’t a direct link to the economy, as the Finnish demographic researcher explains in the interview I linked.

ane 3y ago

I would think that parenthood has now become a choice that many young people no longer want

shakow 3y ago

> European countries where having a child is not a significant financial burden. Beg your pardon? Have you seen the price of real estate/child care/energy/... in Europe?

pavlov 3y ago
I have two children. I live in Finland and previously we lived in New York. The cost of having and raising a child in Finland is minimal compared to the U.S.
- shakow 3y ago
  1. You're comparing with one of the most expensive city in the US; how would it be in e.g. Rapid City or Cincinnati? 2. That's cool for Finland, but Finland is not necessarily representative of Europe as a whole; 3. And even though, ‶better than the US for a someone who's socially high enough to be able to work in NY″ is probably not representative of the average Finn, and still does not make it ‶great″.

SXX 3y ago

> Birth rates are also down in European countries where having a child is not a significant financial burden. I dont know about for whole EU, but I have friends in Germany / Spain and even people who are both working on some middle IT positions can hardly afford 2 bedroom appartment and a car after taxes. Situation is much worse in poorer countries like Poland or expensive one like Switzerland. Also I lived in UK and have family there. It's not quite EU, but rich country nontheless. And a lot people struggle there just to pay their mortage because with high interest rates their repayments also spiked almost 2x. Friends of mine are on high IT salaries that when average Joe with non-IT offline job making 30% less money. And job market is brutal there too - if you lose your job it's possible to find new one, but you'll land on lower salary.

CogitoCogito 3y ago

Was the actual purpose of Finland's policies to support parents or to increase overall fertility? I've always considered similar policies' goal to be supporting the parents meaning that a declining birthrate wouldn't mean the "got it wrong", it would simply mean fewer people want kids. As long as those that do receive support, I'd call the system a success.

themaninthedark 3y ago

Thank you for posting this, I went looking as soon as I saw the first reply to the topic saying the reason was money. I think I read an article about Korea that attributed the precipitous drop in birthrate to an advertising campaign that equated children to being a burden in order to lower what was at the time a very high birthrate. To my mind, the most likely reason is that for most people having kids is not a priority. Need more money, worried about climate change/terrorism/fear-in-vogue, etc. I have two kids, they were born when I was in my 30's. I wish that I could have had them earlier...you are able to recover more when you are younger.