6 ms·

On the other hand, if there was a big push for more sleep, some industries would take a nose dive. Live entertainment, bars, social media, gambling etc. Wonder

by mantas 3y ago

On the other hand, if there was a big push for more sleep, some industries would take a nose dive. Live entertainment, bars, social media, gambling etc. Wonder if at the end GDP would be up or down. But I guess it’d be a win for the society as a whole.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
You can still sleep even if you take part in the night entertainment, you'll just have to sleep during the day instead of the night. Some people can manage to recuperate the night sleep loss during the day, some, like me, can't and it sucks.
- mantas 3y ago
  But you have to find time for sleeping during the day. It may be not an issue for the performers and people making money in those industries. But audience will shrink a lot.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    On the weekends, unless you have to go to work then, you can find time for sleep during the day, no?
    - mantas 3y ago
      If you sleep on weekends during the day, you won’t do stuff during the day. So overall it will be less participating in economy. On top of that, sticking to your circadian rhythm is important too.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >you won’t do stuff during the day. So overall it will be less participating in economy. Who says you're mandated to participate in the economy during your time off in the weekend daytime? You already spent money partying last night and possibly eating out takeaway and ordering an uber. Isn't that enough "for the economy"?
        mantas 3y ago
        That’s what I was trying to say in my original post. More sleep means less time for the economy. Different people may allocate it differently and some may go for weird schedules. But either way it means less time consuming and less GDP generated. I’m not sure if there’s „enough“ when people want eternal GDP growth. Including pension funds etc.
tinyhouse 3y ago
Young people can do much better when it comes to less sleep or sleep cycle disruption. When I was a teenager I worked all nighters on the weekend and never had a problem with sleep.
- mantas 3y ago
  I worked all nighters as a teenager and then slept at school. I didn’t have trouble in sleeping either, I happily did that during the day at school. But going with very sleep for teenagers is not that good for development. And I guess school is important for all but edge cases. If I hadn’t ended up as self-thought programmer, I may have had issues with school performance.
maerF0x0 3y ago
And that's one of the reasons GDP is a pretty junky measure. Stuff that breaks often enough to be replaced Just healthy enough to still go to work Subscribed to everything, owning nothing More food, less nutrition (and flavor) Everything without a transaction valued at 0, Family, Sunsets, compliments, mentoring the next generation
- mantas 3y ago
  Yes. IMO modern western problems can’t be solved without ditching GDP. Pretty much any issue from pollution to health to mental health can be solved but it will hurt GDP.
- graemep 3y ago
  GDP is flawed measure - unfortunately we lack a better one. The aim is to maximise utility, but we cannot quantify utility, and cannot tell when it increases at the level higher than an individual. So we use GDP and then .... Goodhart's law.
  - maerF0x0 3y ago
    Musing for a minute, I wonder if there's a way to create an anti-GDP and subtract them? Something like GDP - (Sickness, Mental Health Therapy, Fixing broken windows and flat tires... et. al.)
    - RaoulP 3y ago
      Interesting thought!
    - mantas 3y ago
      Some people will claim that fixing broken windows and therapy session just generates GDP! Yay for booming stock market lead by therapists and window installers...
    - graemep 3y ago
      It is an interesting idea. It might be possible to improve measures by subtracting some things that can be adjusted for that are harmful. There are lots of problems though - for example, higher expenditure on health might be a result of worsening mental health (bad), or better provision of services (good). That still does not solve the underlying problem. The aim of an economy is to maximise utility (vaguely defined as happiness, satisfaction with life) or more meaningfully defined as an individual's preferences, The problem is that we cannot meaningfully aggregate this across individuals to maximise for the whole economy.
RaoulP 3y ago
I’m sure GDP is a useful metric for all kinds of economic analysis. But it’s also an “easy target” in such a way where I feel it can be a huge distraction. You could appeal to man’s worse nature in all sorts of ways that reflect well in GDP.
graeme 3y ago
Those gdp measures are just transfers of money. They don’t add to net productivity. More productive workers produce more and generate more wealth, the real thing you want to measure with gdp.

by mantas 3y ago

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

You can still sleep even if you take part in the night entertainment, you'll just have to sleep during the day instead of the night. Some people can manage to recuperate the night sleep loss during the day, some, like me, can't and it sucks.

mantas 3y ago
But you have to find time for sleeping during the day. It may be not an issue for the performers and people making money in those industries. But audience will shrink a lot.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  On the weekends, unless you have to go to work then, you can find time for sleep during the day, no?
  - mantas 3y ago
    If you sleep on weekends during the day, you won’t do stuff during the day. So overall it will be less participating in economy. On top of that, sticking to your circadian rhythm is important too.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >you won’t do stuff during the day. So overall it will be less participating in economy. Who says you're mandated to participate in the economy during your time off in the weekend daytime? You already spent money partying last night and possibly eating out takeaway and ordering an uber. Isn't that enough "for the economy"?
      - mantas 3y ago
        That’s what I was trying to say in my original post. More sleep means less time for the economy. Different people may allocate it differently and some may go for weird schedules. But either way it means less time consuming and less GDP generated. I’m not sure if there’s „enough“ when people want eternal GDP growth. Including pension funds etc.

tinyhouse 3y ago

Young people can do much better when it comes to less sleep or sleep cycle disruption. When I was a teenager I worked all nighters on the weekend and never had a problem with sleep.

mantas 3y ago
I worked all nighters as a teenager and then slept at school. I didn’t have trouble in sleeping either, I happily did that during the day at school. But going with very sleep for teenagers is not that good for development. And I guess school is important for all but edge cases. If I hadn’t ended up as self-thought programmer, I may have had issues with school performance.

maerF0x0 3y ago

And that's one of the reasons GDP is a pretty junky measure. Stuff that breaks often enough to be replaced Just healthy enough to still go to work Subscribed to everything, owning nothing More food, less nutrition (and flavor) Everything without a transaction valued at 0, Family, Sunsets, compliments, mentoring the next generation

mantas 3y ago
Yes. IMO modern western problems can’t be solved without ditching GDP. Pretty much any issue from pollution to health to mental health can be solved but it will hurt GDP.
graemep 3y ago
GDP is flawed measure - unfortunately we lack a better one. The aim is to maximise utility, but we cannot quantify utility, and cannot tell when it increases at the level higher than an individual. So we use GDP and then .... Goodhart's law.
- maerF0x0 3y ago
  Musing for a minute, I wonder if there's a way to create an anti-GDP and subtract them? Something like GDP - (Sickness, Mental Health Therapy, Fixing broken windows and flat tires... et. al.)
  - RaoulP 3y ago
    Interesting thought!
  - mantas 3y ago
    Some people will claim that fixing broken windows and therapy session just generates GDP! Yay for booming stock market lead by therapists and window installers...
  - graemep 3y ago
    It is an interesting idea. It might be possible to improve measures by subtracting some things that can be adjusted for that are harmful. There are lots of problems though - for example, higher expenditure on health might be a result of worsening mental health (bad), or better provision of services (good). That still does not solve the underlying problem. The aim of an economy is to maximise utility (vaguely defined as happiness, satisfaction with life) or more meaningfully defined as an individual's preferences, The problem is that we cannot meaningfully aggregate this across individuals to maximise for the whole economy.

RaoulP 3y ago

I’m sure GDP is a useful metric for all kinds of economic analysis. But it’s also an “easy target” in such a way where I feel it can be a huge distraction. You could appeal to man’s worse nature in all sorts of ways that reflect well in GDP.

graeme 3y ago

Those gdp measures are just transfers of money. They don’t add to net productivity. More productive workers produce more and generate more wealth, the real thing you want to measure with gdp.