6 ms·

my opinion (as a dad with kids learning piano, who learned piano as a kid) playing with 88 weighted keys is like learning to write cursive with a fountain pen -

my opinion (as a dad with kids learning piano, who learned piano as a kid) playing with 88 weighted keys is like learning to write cursive with a fountain pen - maybe artistically interesting, but doesn't matter for the core skills. My kids are learning on 61 key unweighted boards and they're learning melody, rhythm, notation, theory, and all of the things that are about music, not about the particular physiological requirements that a machine originally built in the 1600s imposed.

booi 3y ago
The transition from unweighted to weighted is actually pretty big. I would have preferred to learn on a good weighted keyboard or real piano tbh.
pouyarad_ 3y ago
I spent 10 years playing on a keyboard with unweighted keys and I'm rather certain it affected my desire to practice. The other large part was that my teacher did not spend much time on theory with me. Also, when recitals came around it was a big shift to playing on a grand piano with real weighted keys, and that, coupled with the nerves of playing in front of an audience, often led to mistakes. I think the weighted keys help you feel more physically connected to the instrument with more of your body. Unweighted keys require the same involvement as typing on a computer keyboard.
- rrr_oh_man 3y ago
  > Unweighted keys require the same involvement as typing on a computer keyboard. …and who’d have any fun with that?
crazygringo 3y ago
Weighted keys aren't about requirements from the 1600s, they're about being able to achieve an extremely wide and sensitive dynamic range. Unweighted is fine if you're making synth sounds. And of course for understanding the things you've listed. But you can't actually play emotionally expressive piano music on them -- not in the style of classical or jazz. If you tried to play the Moonlight Sonata first movement, it would sound terrible, because the dynamic shadings couldn't be done. I'm not really sure how you've determined what "core skills" are. Sure, if your kids are only going to spend a couple years learning the very basics, and then move onto other things, then it's fine. But the heart and soul of piano music is in the precise touch to generate the dynamic sensitivity. If you want them to learn how to be emotionally expressive through music, playing either classical or jazz, weighted keys are essential. It's not piano otherwise -- it's a synth. (And going from unweighted to weighted isn't trivial. It's an entirely different muscle memory that needs to be developed. They're fundamentally different instruments.)
- blindriver 3y ago
  Try playing Moonlight Sonata Third Movement on a synthesizer! The Third movement is one of the most incredibly intricate and brilliant piano pieces I’ve ever heard in my life!
- jdietrich 3y ago
  >But you can't actually play emotionally expressive piano music on them -- not in the style of classical or jazz. Yes you can, and yes it is more-or-less trivial. With a small amount of deliberate practice, you can learn to produce a full and finely-gradated dynamic range on either a piano-weighted or a semi-weighted keybed. It's a one-dimensional mechanical skill that just isn't particularly difficult relative to, say, an oboeist's reed control or a violinist managing the very complex relationship between bow and string. If I say "you just don't press quite as hard" it'll sound like I'm being glib, but that's literally all there is to it, because physics. Strings players choose from a wide range of string tensions and woodwind players choose from a wide range of reed stiffnesses, based purely on their own personal preference. Some prefer something soft and pliable that responds to the lightest touch, others prefer something that fights back when you dig in. It's an accident of history that mechanical pianos fall into a relatively narrow range of weightings, not a deliberate choice on the part of pianists or piano makers - the range of options are limited by the mechanics of an escapement and hammer. Pianists overwhelmingly prefer weighted keybeds out of habit, but more generalist keyboard players will often prefer a semi-weighted keybed for versatility. You can play gigs or sessions with either and you're the only one who's going to notice. Calling either choice wrong is just dogma.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it's just wrong, and you also misinterpreted my comment. Responding: > Yes you can, and yes it is more-or-less trivial. With a small amount of deliberate practice, you can learn to produce a full and finely-gradated dynamic range on either a piano-weighted or a semi-weighted keybed. It's a one-dimensional mechanical skill that just isn't particularly difficult relative to, say, an oboeist's reed control or a violinist managing the very complex relationship between bow and string. If I say "you just don't press quite as hard" it'll sound like I'm being glib, but that's literally all there is to it, because physics. Pretty much every piano teacher on the globe would like to have a word with you. The idea that it's a "one-dimensional mechanical skill" is greatly misleading when it has to do with joints in the fingers, wrist, elbow, shoulder, even your spine. Positions of all those things, varying degrees of muscle tension. And it's incredibly difficult -- pianists spend years improving their touch, and do things like Alexander lessons to eliminate muscle tension that interferes. "Don't press quite as hard" is incredibly complex, physiologically. (And oboeists are only playing one note at a time, violinists one or two -- pianists need to learn to independently control the force of all 10 fingers independently, sometimes all at once!) But if you want to understand it in just a one-dimensional way, you can. Imagine that the full range of force a finger can produce is mapped from 0 to 100, and humans are sensitive to the degree they can adjust that by 1. Now imagine a weighted keyboard is responsive to the values between 10 and 60 -- that's 50 levels of sensitive gradation. An unweighted or semi-weighted keyboard is more like 25 to 35 -- merely 10 levels. Because we have so much less control, the software makes sure that the extremes are clipped -- you can't play as quietly or as loudly. Your dynamic expressiveness is severely limited. If you want to say "because physics", that's your "because physics". You can measure this in MIDI outputs, actually. A good weighted keyboard will give you a wide range and an experienced pianist can consistently hit the same values without much noise. Whereas unweighted either gives you a much smaller range of values, or you can crank the output range up with software settings but discover that there's either a ton more signal noise because we don't have that fine control over our muscles, or else you discover that the intermediate MIDI values aren't even being used because the keyboard sensors don't support it (e.g. they only support 8 values). > Pianists overwhelmingly prefer weighted keybeds out of habit, but more generalist keyboard players will often prefer a semi-weighted keybed for versatility. You can play gigs or sessions with either and you're the only one who's going to notice. Calling either choice wrong is just dogma. That's false. Pianists don't prefer weighted out of habit, they prefer it because it's required for greater expressiveness, which classical/jazz requires. The "more generalist" keyboard players you're referring to doing "gigs or sessions" are generlly not aiming for dynamic expressiveness -- they're part of a band or providing basic accompaniment to singers doing pop songs, and so forth. And that's fine -- unless it's Norah Jones-type music, you're not usually asking for much expressiveness from the piano in pop music. (She is much more jazz, after all.) But that isn't "more generalist", it's pop. They're not practicing or performing Beethoven or Chopin, because it doesn't work except on a weighted keyboard. Nor are they doing jazz piano. You can't do it. Not well, anyways. And you claim that "calling either choice wrong is just dogma", but that's wrong twice. First, I was very clear than there's nothing wrong with playing the synth. If you want to play synth music, I was clear that unweighted is great (you wouldn't even want weighted, actually). I specifically said weighted is necessary for classical and jazz. But second, it's not "dogma" that you need weighted for classical and jazz. It's just facts. It's "because physics", and the sensitivity of human physiology specifically. It's not dogma -- it's just reality. It's how the two instruments work.
blueboo 3y ago
It’s more like playing baseball with a whiffle ball or using a touchscreen over a mouse, a Segway over hiking. You can learn a lot about steering riding a bike with training wheels. But just like your kids, they’ll be physically unable to use the real thing. It’s not hard to develop that finger strength, just need give kids the opportunity
anon291 3y ago
Weights greatly increase the dynamic range. It has nothing to do with the 1600s.
jacquesm 3y ago
That's all true but your sense of strength associated with a particular loudness will be completely off if you practice only on unweighted keys.
sloxser 3y ago
It is basically like electric guitar vs classical guitar though. Nylon has a very different touch and tension than steel. You could start a student on electric or acoustic guitar that wants to learn classical guitar by why would you just not get them a classical guitar instead? Same thing with piano to me. If you want to eventually learn to play some Chopin there is no reason you would not start with weighted keys. The modern piano was also not even popular until the late 1700s.

booi 3y ago

The transition from unweighted to weighted is actually pretty big. I would have preferred to learn on a good weighted keyboard or real piano tbh.

pouyarad_ 3y ago

I spent 10 years playing on a keyboard with unweighted keys and I'm rather certain it affected my desire to practice. The other large part was that my teacher did not spend much time on theory with me. Also, when recitals came around it was a big shift to playing on a grand piano with real weighted keys, and that, coupled with the nerves of playing in front of an audience, often led to mistakes. I think the weighted keys help you feel more physically connected to the instrument with more of your body. Unweighted keys require the same involvement as typing on a computer keyboard.

rrr_oh_man 3y ago
> Unweighted keys require the same involvement as typing on a computer keyboard. …and who’d have any fun with that?

crazygringo 3y ago

Weighted keys aren't about requirements from the 1600s, they're about being able to achieve an extremely wide and sensitive dynamic range. Unweighted is fine if you're making synth sounds. And of course for understanding the things you've listed. But you can't actually play emotionally expressive piano music on them -- not in the style of classical or jazz. If you tried to play the Moonlight Sonata first movement, it would sound terrible, because the dynamic shadings couldn't be done. I'm not really sure how you've determined what "core skills" are. Sure, if your kids are only going to spend a couple years learning the very basics, and then move onto other things, then it's fine. But the heart and soul of piano music is in the precise touch to generate the dynamic sensitivity. If you want them to learn how to be emotionally expressive through music, playing either classical or jazz, weighted keys are essential. It's not piano otherwise -- it's a synth. (And going from unweighted to weighted isn't trivial. It's an entirely different muscle memory that needs to be developed. They're fundamentally different instruments.)

blindriver 3y ago
Try playing Moonlight Sonata Third Movement on a synthesizer! The Third movement is one of the most incredibly intricate and brilliant piano pieces I’ve ever heard in my life!
jdietrich 3y ago
>But you can't actually play emotionally expressive piano music on them -- not in the style of classical or jazz. Yes you can, and yes it is more-or-less trivial. With a small amount of deliberate practice, you can learn to produce a full and finely-gradated dynamic range on either a piano-weighted or a semi-weighted keybed. It's a one-dimensional mechanical skill that just isn't particularly difficult relative to, say, an oboeist's reed control or a violinist managing the very complex relationship between bow and string. If I say "you just don't press quite as hard" it'll sound like I'm being glib, but that's literally all there is to it, because physics. Strings players choose from a wide range of string tensions and woodwind players choose from a wide range of reed stiffnesses, based purely on their own personal preference. Some prefer something soft and pliable that responds to the lightest touch, others prefer something that fights back when you dig in. It's an accident of history that mechanical pianos fall into a relatively narrow range of weightings, not a deliberate choice on the part of pianists or piano makers - the range of options are limited by the mechanics of an escapement and hammer. Pianists overwhelmingly prefer weighted keybeds out of habit, but more generalist keyboard players will often prefer a semi-weighted keybed for versatility. You can play gigs or sessions with either and you're the only one who's going to notice. Calling either choice wrong is just dogma.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it's just wrong, and you also misinterpreted my comment. Responding: > Yes you can, and yes it is more-or-less trivial. With a small amount of deliberate practice, you can learn to produce a full and finely-gradated dynamic range on either a piano-weighted or a semi-weighted keybed. It's a one-dimensional mechanical skill that just isn't particularly difficult relative to, say, an oboeist's reed control or a violinist managing the very complex relationship between bow and string. If I say "you just don't press quite as hard" it'll sound like I'm being glib, but that's literally all there is to it, because physics. Pretty much every piano teacher on the globe would like to have a word with you. The idea that it's a "one-dimensional mechanical skill" is greatly misleading when it has to do with joints in the fingers, wrist, elbow, shoulder, even your spine. Positions of all those things, varying degrees of muscle tension. And it's incredibly difficult -- pianists spend years improving their touch, and do things like Alexander lessons to eliminate muscle tension that interferes. "Don't press quite as hard" is incredibly complex, physiologically. (And oboeists are only playing one note at a time, violinists one or two -- pianists need to learn to independently control the force of all 10 fingers independently, sometimes all at once!) But if you want to understand it in just a one-dimensional way, you can. Imagine that the full range of force a finger can produce is mapped from 0 to 100, and humans are sensitive to the degree they can adjust that by 1. Now imagine a weighted keyboard is responsive to the values between 10 and 60 -- that's 50 levels of sensitive gradation. An unweighted or semi-weighted keyboard is more like 25 to 35 -- merely 10 levels. Because we have so much less control, the software makes sure that the extremes are clipped -- you can't play as quietly or as loudly. Your dynamic expressiveness is severely limited. If you want to say "because physics", that's your "because physics". You can measure this in MIDI outputs, actually. A good weighted keyboard will give you a wide range and an experienced pianist can consistently hit the same values without much noise. Whereas unweighted either gives you a much smaller range of values, or you can crank the output range up with software settings but discover that there's either a ton more signal noise because we don't have that fine control over our muscles, or else you discover that the intermediate MIDI values aren't even being used because the keyboard sensors don't support it (e.g. they only support 8 values). > Pianists overwhelmingly prefer weighted keybeds out of habit, but more generalist keyboard players will often prefer a semi-weighted keybed for versatility. You can play gigs or sessions with either and you're the only one who's going to notice. Calling either choice wrong is just dogma. That's false. Pianists don't prefer weighted out of habit, they prefer it because it's required for greater expressiveness, which classical/jazz requires. The "more generalist" keyboard players you're referring to doing "gigs or sessions" are generlly not aiming for dynamic expressiveness -- they're part of a band or providing basic accompaniment to singers doing pop songs, and so forth. And that's fine -- unless it's Norah Jones-type music, you're not usually asking for much expressiveness from the piano in pop music. (She is much more jazz, after all.) But that isn't "more generalist", it's pop. They're not practicing or performing Beethoven or Chopin, because it doesn't work except on a weighted keyboard. Nor are they doing jazz piano. You can't do it. Not well, anyways. And you claim that "calling either choice wrong is just dogma", but that's wrong twice. First, I was very clear than there's nothing wrong with playing the synth. If you want to play synth music, I was clear that unweighted is great (you wouldn't even want weighted, actually). I specifically said weighted is necessary for classical and jazz. But second, it's not "dogma" that you need weighted for classical and jazz. It's just facts. It's "because physics", and the sensitivity of human physiology specifically. It's not dogma -- it's just reality. It's how the two instruments work.

blueboo 3y ago

It’s more like playing baseball with a whiffle ball or using a touchscreen over a mouse, a Segway over hiking. You can learn a lot about steering riding a bike with training wheels. But just like your kids, they’ll be physically unable to use the real thing. It’s not hard to develop that finger strength, just need give kids the opportunity

anon291 3y ago

Weights greatly increase the dynamic range. It has nothing to do with the 1600s.

jacquesm 3y ago

That's all true but your sense of strength associated with a particular loudness will be completely off if you practice only on unweighted keys.

sloxser 3y ago

It is basically like electric guitar vs classical guitar though. Nylon has a very different touch and tension than steel. You could start a student on electric or acoustic guitar that wants to learn classical guitar by why would you just not get them a classical guitar instead? Same thing with piano to me. If you want to eventually learn to play some Chopin there is no reason you would not start with weighted keys. The modern piano was also not even popular until the late 1700s.