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There is no code to crack. Just build more housing and it will become affordable. If it’s not affordable, you haven’t built enough yet. It’s crazy how these ci

by imgabe 3y ago

There is no code to crack. Just build more housing and it will become affordable. If it’s not affordable, you haven’t built enough yet. It’s crazy how these cities will try literally anything except building more housing.

somewhereoutth 3y ago
Not necessarily. The housing market is very complex, and there is such a thing as induced demand - for example building lots more apartments in SF would make it even more attractive for e.g. tech companies to locate, and so they would quickly be filled, without moving the price.
- j7ake 3y ago
  Any data to support this hypothesis?
- imgabe 3y ago
  Induced demand refers to highways. Do you know of any studies demonstrating induced demand for housing? As a counterpoint, look at all the empty cities China built in the middle of nowhere. According to the "induced demand" hypothesis, people should have materialized to occupy them, but that didn't happen. Cities currently prevent the market from meeting even the regular demand, let alone any induced demand. Housing isn't going to get cheaper by not building housing.
  - Alifatisk 3y ago
    Aren’t those empty houses in China prone to break down? I think I remember seeing a video of a guy visiting one of those buildings and managed to kick through the wall and floor pretty easily.
    - egberts1 3y ago
      Yes, amongst others. https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/4nkkq7/apartment_buildings_in_china/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/4nkkq7/apartment_buil...
- refurb 3y ago
  It's not so simple. Some cities have too much housing. So much so the value of land goes down because of the house built on it. Sure building more housing, pushing prices down might induce more demand, but there are a dozen other factors (not in the control of the city) that also influence demand - job vacancies, crime levels, quality of schools, etc, etc.
- jjk166 3y ago
  Induced demand is just unsatisfied demand from parties not counted - if there are more people/companies that want to relocate to SF but can't because of a lack of available supply, that's just as much a shortage as for people and companies which wish to remain in SF.
- johngladtj 3y ago
  Induced demand does not exist, it is literally not a thing. The demand was there, the cost was just too high to satisfy it.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>you won’t do stuff during the day. So overall it will be less participating in economy. Building more housing ruins the picturesque views and hip vibe of the area. /s
- rcbdev 3y ago
  In Vienna they have this interesting thing where any apartment built before the 50s is rent-capped, so investors usually won't go for the very picturesque old-town properties. This combined with 1/4th of apartments in the city being social housing really created a very affordable market for renters.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >really created a very affordable market for renters. I wouldn't say it's very affordable in the post pandemic, post Ukraine world. It's affordable only if you get public social housing, or if you compare the private market rents to what's happening in the likes of London, Amsterdam, Berlin or Munich, but those are high paying banking/corporate/tech hubs, while Vienna is not, and so the lower rents also reflect the lower spending power of Viennese workers.
    - rcbdev 3y ago
      Most people can live in a rent-capped MRG apartment for two years and then immediately qualify for social housing and stay there until the day they drop dead - seems like a very affordable system to me, nonetheless. The salaries are comparably horrible and that probably plays its part too in the equation, for sure, but on the other hand the salaries would also have to be higher if the state government didn't do such an excellent job at housing people for reasonable cost.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >seems like a very affordable system to me First question: How do you get in that system? Or is it reserved only for locals? Because I contemplated moving to Vienna last year (most livable city, lowest rents and all that advertising) and I saw on Willhaben single bedroom apartments in decent shape were 1000+ Euros while software developer take home wages and perks weren't higher than in shitholes like Bucharest, Belgrade or Sofia (no offence, I'm also from around that region), sometimes even worse than there. Second question: if the government is basically indirectly subsidizing employers by subsidizing housing for employees, meaning companies need to pay less for talent than in higher CoL areas, why then aren't more international tech companies opening offices in Vienna and instead keep hiring only in places with a housing shortage like London Berlin and Amsterdam? Something just doesn't add up. You'd think Vienna would be a magnet for companies instead of the overpriced cities with zero housing.

by imgabe 3y ago

somewhereoutth 3y ago

Not necessarily. The housing market is very complex, and there is such a thing as induced demand - for example building lots more apartments in SF would make it even more attractive for e.g. tech companies to locate, and so they would quickly be filled, without moving the price.

j7ake 3y ago
Any data to support this hypothesis?
imgabe 3y ago
Induced demand refers to highways. Do you know of any studies demonstrating induced demand for housing? As a counterpoint, look at all the empty cities China built in the middle of nowhere. According to the "induced demand" hypothesis, people should have materialized to occupy them, but that didn't happen. Cities currently prevent the market from meeting even the regular demand, let alone any induced demand. Housing isn't going to get cheaper by not building housing.
- Alifatisk 3y ago
  Aren’t those empty houses in China prone to break down? I think I remember seeing a video of a guy visiting one of those buildings and managed to kick through the wall and floor pretty easily.
  - egberts1 3y ago
    Yes, amongst others. https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/4nkkq7/apartment_buildings_in_china/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/4nkkq7/apartment_buil...
refurb 3y ago
It's not so simple. Some cities have too much housing. So much so the value of land goes down because of the house built on it. Sure building more housing, pushing prices down might induce more demand, but there are a dozen other factors (not in the control of the city) that also influence demand - job vacancies, crime levels, quality of schools, etc, etc.
jjk166 3y ago
Induced demand is just unsatisfied demand from parties not counted - if there are more people/companies that want to relocate to SF but can't because of a lack of available supply, that's just as much a shortage as for people and companies which wish to remain in SF.
johngladtj 3y ago
Induced demand does not exist, it is literally not a thing. The demand was there, the cost was just too high to satisfy it.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>you won’t do stuff during the day. So overall it will be less participating in economy. Building more housing ruins the picturesque views and hip vibe of the area. /s

rcbdev 3y ago
In Vienna they have this interesting thing where any apartment built before the 50s is rent-capped, so investors usually won't go for the very picturesque old-town properties. This combined with 1/4th of apartments in the city being social housing really created a very affordable market for renters.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >really created a very affordable market for renters. I wouldn't say it's very affordable in the post pandemic, post Ukraine world. It's affordable only if you get public social housing, or if you compare the private market rents to what's happening in the likes of London, Amsterdam, Berlin or Munich, but those are high paying banking/corporate/tech hubs, while Vienna is not, and so the lower rents also reflect the lower spending power of Viennese workers.
  - rcbdev 3y ago
    Most people can live in a rent-capped MRG apartment for two years and then immediately qualify for social housing and stay there until the day they drop dead - seems like a very affordable system to me, nonetheless. The salaries are comparably horrible and that probably plays its part too in the equation, for sure, but on the other hand the salaries would also have to be higher if the state government didn't do such an excellent job at housing people for reasonable cost.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >seems like a very affordable system to me First question: How do you get in that system? Or is it reserved only for locals? Because I contemplated moving to Vienna last year (most livable city, lowest rents and all that advertising) and I saw on Willhaben single bedroom apartments in decent shape were 1000+ Euros while software developer take home wages and perks weren't higher than in shitholes like Bucharest, Belgrade or Sofia (no offence, I'm also from around that region), sometimes even worse than there. Second question: if the government is basically indirectly subsidizing employers by subsidizing housing for employees, meaning companies need to pay less for talent than in higher CoL areas, why then aren't more international tech companies opening offices in Vienna and instead keep hiring only in places with a housing shortage like London Berlin and Amsterdam? Something just doesn't add up. You'd think Vienna would be a magnet for companies instead of the overpriced cities with zero housing.