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Tokyo manages to remain affordable somehow. “Two full-time workers earning Tokyo’s minimum wage can comfortably afford the average rent for a two-bedroom apart

Tokyo manages to remain affordable somehow. “Two full-time workers earning Tokyo’s minimum wage can comfortably afford the average rent for a two-bedroom apartment in six of the city’s 23 wards.” https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/11/opinion/editorials/tokyo-housing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/11/opinion/editorials/tokyo-...

stavros 3y ago
Not to detract from your point, but 2-bedroom apartments in Tokyo are 60 sqm or something.
- ZoomerCretin 3y ago
  That's 646 square feet. That's 25'5"x25'5". For an urban area, that's plenty of space. That doesn't mean literally every apartment is that small, just that small and cheap apartments are available for those who want them, and American-sized apartments with American prices are also available for those who want to pay for them. That's one of the main reasons why housing is so expensive in the United States. We paternalistically decide that 760 square feet is the absolute minimum amount of livable space for a one-bedroom apartment, and instead force people who can't afford that much space to split a 1200 square foot apartment with three people. Adults are more than capable of deciding for themselves how big of an apartment they would like to live in. Banning 60 square meter apartments doesn't help people who can't afford the legal mandated minimum.
  - cyberax 3y ago
    > That's 646 square feet. That's 25'5"x25'5". For an urban area, that's plenty of space. It's not. And this is the total space, including the bathroom and the kitchen. > That doesn't mean literally every apartment is that small You are right, some are even smaller: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/business/tiny-apartments-tokyo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/business/tiny-apartments-... And all while just a hundred miles away, beautiful historical houses can be bought for literally nothing. And that's with a rapidly declining population.
    - tekla 3y ago
      What is this opulence? 646 SqFt is plenty.
      - cyberax 3y ago
        Next generation: who the fuck needs their own _room_? A bunk bed is enough!
    - presentation 3y ago
      30 million people in the Tokyo area would like to disagree with you, myself included. Why do you think those beautiful historical houses are laying there empty?
      - cyberax 3y ago
        Because people are forced to move closer to urban centers by economic forces. Nobody seriously tried to incentivize job creation outside of Downtowns.
        presentation 3y ago
        I can tell you for a fact that I did not move to Tokyo because I was forced to by economic forces, I chose to move there out of my own accord despite being fully location independent. Just because you hate cities doesn’t mean everyone else does.
    - ZoomerCretin 3y ago
      Why do you feel the need to impose your values on others, even at great cost?
cyberax 3y ago
> Tokyo manages to remain affordable somehow. Bullshit. Tokyo's average unit costs $1m now. They managed to create a bona-fide property bubble in the middle of declining population: https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/surging-tokyo-property-prices-squeeze-out-young-professionals-2023-10-04/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/surging-tokyo-property-... The NYT article is (of course) a one-sided social engineering story, full of half-truths and outright lies.
- epistasis 3y ago
  You do realize that people can read the articles you link to, right? For example: > The flood of investment drove the average price for a new condominium in central Tokyo up 60% to a record 129.6 million yen ($865,000) in the first half of this year, according to the Real Estate Economic Institute. Prices surged. Before the surge, professionals had this dream of owning. So your own article refutes your nonsensical statement that Dems housing can "never" be affordable. Can you conceive of a cyclical nature to markets that affects pricing? Or is it that now that they went from affordable to less affordable, it means that purchasing will forever be changed now? Or you assertion of "declining population"? Maybe on the national level, but it's not true of Tokyo! https://www.statista.com/statistics/608585/japan-tokyo-population-by-age-group/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/608585/japan-tokyo-popul... And what is the difference in cost between renting and owning? Perhaps renting is affordable, but ownership is extremely expensive becuase of irrational speculation or temporary macro factors? TL;DR your own article refutes your central hypothesis that housing can not be affordable in dense cities.
  - cyberax 3y ago
    > Prices surged. Before the surge, professionals had this dream of owning. You're literally repeating the joke. A doctor asks a nurse: - Was the patient sweating prior to death? - Yes. - Good, that's a good sign. > Or you assertion of "declining population"? Maybe on the national level, but it's not true of Tokyo! Indeed. And that's my point. Tokyo, like a leech, is sucking the life from its surroundings. > And what is the difference in cost between renting and owning? Perhaps renting is affordable, but ownership is extremely expensive becuase of irrational speculation or temporary macro factors? No. They are not temporary. The prices will not fall, they have been steadily growing for the last 2 decades.

stavros 3y ago

Not to detract from your point, but 2-bedroom apartments in Tokyo are 60 sqm or something.

ZoomerCretin 3y ago
That's 646 square feet. That's 25'5"x25'5". For an urban area, that's plenty of space. That doesn't mean literally every apartment is that small, just that small and cheap apartments are available for those who want them, and American-sized apartments with American prices are also available for those who want to pay for them. That's one of the main reasons why housing is so expensive in the United States. We paternalistically decide that 760 square feet is the absolute minimum amount of livable space for a one-bedroom apartment, and instead force people who can't afford that much space to split a 1200 square foot apartment with three people. Adults are more than capable of deciding for themselves how big of an apartment they would like to live in. Banning 60 square meter apartments doesn't help people who can't afford the legal mandated minimum.
- cyberax 3y ago
  > That's 646 square feet. That's 25'5"x25'5". For an urban area, that's plenty of space. It's not. And this is the total space, including the bathroom and the kitchen. > That doesn't mean literally every apartment is that small You are right, some are even smaller: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/business/tiny-apartments-tokyo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/business/tiny-apartments-... And all while just a hundred miles away, beautiful historical houses can be bought for literally nothing. And that's with a rapidly declining population.
  - tekla 3y ago
    What is this opulence? 646 SqFt is plenty.
    - cyberax 3y ago
      Next generation: who the fuck needs their own _room_? A bunk bed is enough!
  - presentation 3y ago
    30 million people in the Tokyo area would like to disagree with you, myself included. Why do you think those beautiful historical houses are laying there empty?
    - cyberax 3y ago
      Because people are forced to move closer to urban centers by economic forces. Nobody seriously tried to incentivize job creation outside of Downtowns.
      - presentation 3y ago
        I can tell you for a fact that I did not move to Tokyo because I was forced to by economic forces, I chose to move there out of my own accord despite being fully location independent. Just because you hate cities doesn’t mean everyone else does.
  - ZoomerCretin 3y ago
    Why do you feel the need to impose your values on others, even at great cost?

cyberax 3y ago

> Tokyo manages to remain affordable somehow. Bullshit. Tokyo's average unit costs $1m now. They managed to create a bona-fide property bubble in the middle of declining population: https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/surging-tokyo-property-prices-squeeze-out-young-professionals-2023-10-04/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/surging-tokyo-property-... The NYT article is (of course) a one-sided social engineering story, full of half-truths and outright lies.

epistasis 3y ago
You do realize that people can read the articles you link to, right? For example: > The flood of investment drove the average price for a new condominium in central Tokyo up 60% to a record 129.6 million yen ($865,000) in the first half of this year, according to the Real Estate Economic Institute. Prices surged. Before the surge, professionals had this dream of owning. So your own article refutes your nonsensical statement that Dems housing can "never" be affordable. Can you conceive of a cyclical nature to markets that affects pricing? Or is it that now that they went from affordable to less affordable, it means that purchasing will forever be changed now? Or you assertion of "declining population"? Maybe on the national level, but it's not true of Tokyo! https://www.statista.com/statistics/608585/japan-tokyo-population-by-age-group/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/608585/japan-tokyo-popul... And what is the difference in cost between renting and owning? Perhaps renting is affordable, but ownership is extremely expensive becuase of irrational speculation or temporary macro factors? TL;DR your own article refutes your central hypothesis that housing can not be affordable in dense cities.
- cyberax 3y ago
  > Prices surged. Before the surge, professionals had this dream of owning. You're literally repeating the joke. A doctor asks a nurse: - Was the patient sweating prior to death? - Yes. - Good, that's a good sign. > Or you assertion of "declining population"? Maybe on the national level, but it's not true of Tokyo! Indeed. And that's my point. Tokyo, like a leech, is sucking the life from its surroundings. > And what is the difference in cost between renting and owning? Perhaps renting is affordable, but ownership is extremely expensive becuase of irrational speculation or temporary macro factors? No. They are not temporary. The prices will not fall, they have been steadily growing for the last 2 decades.