4 ms·

We had a team of about 10-15 in Romania. The long and short of it was that it was nice to put in requirements late in the day and have them done in the morning

We had a team of about 10-15 in Romania. The long and short of it was that it was nice to put in requirements late in the day and have them done in the morning but overall the code quality was terrible. We had a Romanian developer here in the States and he was great. He was in charge of the Romanian contingent so he could have been a bit better on the code quality control side but corralling 15 coders is not an easy task so I don't blame him. I am sure there are a lot of talent around the world but a lot of them make their way to the States or other higher paying Western countries under visas and leave the average back home a bit depleted. I've seen the same phenomena in Pakistan and India as well. Great Pakistani and Indian devs here in the States and mediocre coders back home.

bad_user 15y ago
I'm a Romanian and I'm still living in Romania, working remotely for U.S. companies. First of all, I do not agree with what you're saying. A lot of people do not leave the country, simply because of our culture. We are used to live close to our families, we are used to live close to our place of birth. We are not as disconnected as other nations. I have ex-colleagues that were hired by Google. At least one of them preferred their Zurich office to be closer, even though he is so capable that he could have chosen any of their locations. I also have ex-colleagues and friends that refused to work for Google or Facebook and that are still in Romania. Including myself. There's something often not said whenever people talk about outsourcing to Eastern European countries: foreigners often come with high expectations, in exchange for peanuts. This article says that you can find a great developer for 2000 EUR. That's true, but that's also peanuts and those developers getting paid with 2000 EUR won't stay interested for long and if they do for the long term, they'll just put the minimum effort into it, while doing their own thing. I very often get invitations from U.S. companies to join their projects. Because I like to stay up to date with the pulse of the market, I accept to participate in many interviews. However, because I don't want my time wasted, I talk about salary expectations early on. And I can't tell you how disappointed I get, as companies that have quite the reputation come to me with salaries that are somewhere between 1000 EUR and 2000 EUR ... which really, is downright insulting. Also, companies that have a large development team in the U.S. tend to outsource the throwaways. This is another thing that's often not mentioned, and I'm sorry, but you won't get the best developers here with this attitude. Now, do not get me wrong. I love working for U.S. companies, but do not offer peanuts or throwaways, otherwise you will get monkeys. And when reading pieces like the above, remember that context is everything.
- clavalle 14y ago
  "And I can't tell you how disappointed I get, as companies that have quite the reputation come to me with salaries that are somewhere between 1000 EUR and 2000 EUR ... which really, is downright insulting." Ugh! That is /terrible/ for talent anywhere to have to put up with. We have two developers, one Turkish and one Indian who worked for us here in the States for several years each. Excellent developers. Now they both remote in from their home countries and still make their original salaries. I think that might be a decent model for those that can do it. Move to a host country, develop the trust that only working in the same office can give, then carve out your own situation as you see fit, whether it is travelling the U.S. in an RV, or moving to the deep suburbs or moving back home even if that home is on the other side of the planet. Overall it will accelerate the trend to parity all over the world.
hetman 15y ago
I suppose one has to strike a balance between wages and quality. For this reason I suspect Poland might be a better option right now; it is now the 7th largest EU economy and one of the fastest growing in Europe (in no small part due to a good deal of foreign investment). Practically, on the ground, that means people are not as keen to leave for the West as they once were, leading to an increasing number of quality developers. I suspect Romania's time has not come just yet, though it's definitely one to watch in the coming years as this effect of investment travels progressively eastward.
- fierarul 15y ago
  IT people from Romania are not leaving for the West as much as the West imagines. And part of those that leave come back. Working in IT in Romania is a good position socially and economically. You have a good salary and you are part of the middle class from the start. If you just want to have a normal career and a family life there is no reason to leave Romania for the West. So, the number of quality developers isn't influenced as much by this. It's influenced much more by our education system which imho is failing and by the very same local (multinational) companies that want worker bees and don't know how to grow their own people.

bad_user 15y ago

I'm a Romanian and I'm still living in Romania, working remotely for U.S. companies. First of all, I do not agree with what you're saying. A lot of people do not leave the country, simply because of our culture. We are used to live close to our families, we are used to live close to our place of birth. We are not as disconnected as other nations. I have ex-colleagues that were hired by Google. At least one of them preferred their Zurich office to be closer, even though he is so capable that he could have chosen any of their locations. I also have ex-colleagues and friends that refused to work for Google or Facebook and that are still in Romania. Including myself. There's something often not said whenever people talk about outsourcing to Eastern European countries: foreigners often come with high expectations, in exchange for peanuts. This article says that you can find a great developer for 2000 EUR. That's true, but that's also peanuts and those developers getting paid with 2000 EUR won't stay interested for long and if they do for the long term, they'll just put the minimum effort into it, while doing their own thing. I very often get invitations from U.S. companies to join their projects. Because I like to stay up to date with the pulse of the market, I accept to participate in many interviews. However, because I don't want my time wasted, I talk about salary expectations early on. And I can't tell you how disappointed I get, as companies that have quite the reputation come to me with salaries that are somewhere between 1000 EUR and 2000 EUR ... which really, is downright insulting. Also, companies that have a large development team in the U.S. tend to outsource the throwaways. This is another thing that's often not mentioned, and I'm sorry, but you won't get the best developers here with this attitude. Now, do not get me wrong. I love working for U.S. companies, but do not offer peanuts or throwaways, otherwise you will get monkeys. And when reading pieces like the above, remember that context is everything.

clavalle 14y ago
"And I can't tell you how disappointed I get, as companies that have quite the reputation come to me with salaries that are somewhere between 1000 EUR and 2000 EUR ... which really, is downright insulting." Ugh! That is /terrible/ for talent anywhere to have to put up with. We have two developers, one Turkish and one Indian who worked for us here in the States for several years each. Excellent developers. Now they both remote in from their home countries and still make their original salaries. I think that might be a decent model for those that can do it. Move to a host country, develop the trust that only working in the same office can give, then carve out your own situation as you see fit, whether it is travelling the U.S. in an RV, or moving to the deep suburbs or moving back home even if that home is on the other side of the planet. Overall it will accelerate the trend to parity all over the world.

hetman 15y ago

I suppose one has to strike a balance between wages and quality. For this reason I suspect Poland might be a better option right now; it is now the 7th largest EU economy and one of the fastest growing in Europe (in no small part due to a good deal of foreign investment). Practically, on the ground, that means people are not as keen to leave for the West as they once were, leading to an increasing number of quality developers. I suspect Romania's time has not come just yet, though it's definitely one to watch in the coming years as this effect of investment travels progressively eastward.

fierarul 15y ago
IT people from Romania are not leaving for the West as much as the West imagines. And part of those that leave come back. Working in IT in Romania is a good position socially and economically. You have a good salary and you are part of the middle class from the start. If you just want to have a normal career and a family life there is no reason to leave Romania for the West. So, the number of quality developers isn't influenced as much by this. It's influenced much more by our education system which imho is failing and by the very same local (multinational) companies that want worker bees and don't know how to grow their own people.