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This is a common rebuttal, but I don’t think it holds up under much scrutiny. People idolize the charismatic protagonists, they don’t look at them as cautionary

This is a common rebuttal, but I don’t think it holds up under much scrutiny. People idolize the charismatic protagonists, they don’t look at them as cautionary tales. The reaction is “that’s cool,” not “I guess he didn’t win in the end.” Fight Club is a good example. Tyler Durden is clearly the most charismatic character and has “inspired” a whole lot of viewers, even if he loses in the end.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
It is difficult to deal with examples like Fight Club, where the audience simply interprets the entire story in a different way than the author. Should an author be responsible when they create a what they intend to be a cautionary tale only to find that it is interpreted as a celebratory tale?
- keiferski 3y ago
  I don’t think the author is the relevant person here. The filmmakers are, and they pretty clearly chose to make Durden a charismatic figure and Jack an awkward one. And of course they would - it makes for a better story and overall film. Beyond that, I think most films/shows are functionally the same. No one wants to watch an ugly, uncharismatic actor just…fail. That doesn’t make for a good story. It seems pretty obvious to me that the vast majority shows are produced based on the quality of the story, not on instilling ethical values. Otherwise why would something like Dexter even exist?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Durden is, according the author at least, an imaginary character. In his mind at least that overrides the "charisma" level. So make of that what you will. People preferences for story telling is partly why the really good story tellers are so reverred: they make us comfortable, engaged even, in stories in which our natural inclinations would lead us towards different outcomes. We don't like watching ugly, uncharismatic actors fail, but the good stories keep us engaged when the pretty, charismatic actors get their just rewards for bad behavior. I have no idea why anyone would think that Dexter is not a tale about moral values, and the "right ones" too ...
- andrewflnr 3y ago
  "Responsible" is a highly overloaded word, but if nothing else it's a call for writers to be cautious in how they present things. I'm working on a story with a (mostly) sympathetic protagonist who does some awful things and ultimately undergoes moral meltdown. One of my beta readers pointed out that my ending, bleak as it was, sort of rewarded the protagonist by giving her catharsis and some vindication, if not an actual happy ending. I took that as the top priority from that round of feedback and made sure to tweak the framing. Did I succeed? Maybe. Can I absolutely prevent people from taking the wrong message? No. But I can try, and at least cut off the obvious routes to misinterpretation, learning from previous examples (Fight Club is actually not too far off in spirit). I think this is a moral responsibility of anyone making art, especially stories, for consumption by others: you at least have to try, where "try" includes a good faith effort to learn from common mistakes.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Thank you for your service.
    - andrewflnr 3y ago
      Service? Thank me when it's published and the real life feedback comes in. Maybe. :D

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

It is difficult to deal with examples like Fight Club, where the audience simply interprets the entire story in a different way than the author. Should an author be responsible when they create a what they intend to be a cautionary tale only to find that it is interpreted as a celebratory tale?

keiferski 3y ago
I don’t think the author is the relevant person here. The filmmakers are, and they pretty clearly chose to make Durden a charismatic figure and Jack an awkward one. And of course they would - it makes for a better story and overall film. Beyond that, I think most films/shows are functionally the same. No one wants to watch an ugly, uncharismatic actor just…fail. That doesn’t make for a good story. It seems pretty obvious to me that the vast majority shows are produced based on the quality of the story, not on instilling ethical values. Otherwise why would something like Dexter even exist?
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  Durden is, according the author at least, an imaginary character. In his mind at least that overrides the "charisma" level. So make of that what you will. People preferences for story telling is partly why the really good story tellers are so reverred: they make us comfortable, engaged even, in stories in which our natural inclinations would lead us towards different outcomes. We don't like watching ugly, uncharismatic actors fail, but the good stories keep us engaged when the pretty, charismatic actors get their just rewards for bad behavior. I have no idea why anyone would think that Dexter is not a tale about moral values, and the "right ones" too ...
andrewflnr 3y ago
"Responsible" is a highly overloaded word, but if nothing else it's a call for writers to be cautious in how they present things. I'm working on a story with a (mostly) sympathetic protagonist who does some awful things and ultimately undergoes moral meltdown. One of my beta readers pointed out that my ending, bleak as it was, sort of rewarded the protagonist by giving her catharsis and some vindication, if not an actual happy ending. I took that as the top priority from that round of feedback and made sure to tweak the framing. Did I succeed? Maybe. Can I absolutely prevent people from taking the wrong message? No. But I can try, and at least cut off the obvious routes to misinterpretation, learning from previous examples (Fight Club is actually not too far off in spirit). I think this is a moral responsibility of anyone making art, especially stories, for consumption by others: you at least have to try, where "try" includes a good faith effort to learn from common mistakes.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  Thank you for your service.
  - andrewflnr 3y ago
    Service? Thank me when it's published and the real life feedback comes in. Maybe. :D