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And presumably you can afford to out bid all the other people who want what you want. Its great that you are wealthy and/or able and willing to spend a very hi

And presumably you can afford to out bid all the other people who want what you want. Its great that you are wealthy and/or able and willing to spend a very high fraction of your income on non essentials like walking to nice restaurants and being near cool people you want to be near. The problem is that people who can't afford that think it is a hate crime if they can't afford to live in Brooklyn with the rest of the hipsters.

kredd 3y ago
Your “non-essential” is someone else’s “essential”. Everyone has different needs and wants, and it’s just a useless flamewar. It’s the same as the discussion of whether the cities should stop subsidizing suburbs and other areas. Absolutely useless as everyone have their preferences and we have to find some sort of compromise.
- ltbarcly3 3y ago
  > Your “non-essential” is someone else’s “essential”. I don't think this word means what you think it means.
  - BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
    What things are essential? A tent, water fountain, and scavenged scraps will keep someone alive. Is a toilet essential, or could you just use the street like the birds and squirrels do without complaint? Is a bidet essential, or could you scrape your anus with paper until you see spots of blood like many americans do? Is internet access essential or could you just go to the library which is free and open to all? I think there are not any objective definitions of what makes a housing situation essential. So in that light, I think if we're going to consider physical needs, we should probably also consider emotional wellbeing.
    - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
      well, as someone who grew up extremely poor (to the point of living in a tent on the side of the river in HS) I'm here to tell you nothing you mentioned is essential. I looked up the average salary in NYC out of curiosity and I make well above the average there. but I live extremely cheaply and part of that is the lessons I learned as a child. I could afford a much bigger house, much nicer cars, more toys. I choose not to. I know people who will finish paying off a vehicle and turn it in for another one. Not essential. Just because someone _feels_ as though something is important doesn't mean that it is. The difference between middle class and poor is that poor has to deal with reality, middle class gets to keep the delusion that things like nice cars are essential. These people are choosing not to move. It's great that they can afford it but maybe they should stop complaining vociferously about how victimized they are for choosing to live in that area.
      - BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
        > I'm here to tell you nothing you mentioned is essential. Good, then nothing is essential and we can stop worrying about whether something is essential or not and go back to talking about desirable.
        PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
        I don't know that I would take that stance but certainly a bidet and a nice car do not fall under that category, nor does being able to walk to a restaurant. You may try and argue some of the grey areas, but most of the things you listed are _clearly_ not essential, they're desirable by specific people, as you said.
        BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
        What makes a toilet essential but not a bidet? Plenty of people manage to survive without toilets. Some of them even in downtown San Francisco (you can tell by the state of the sidewalks). They don't tend to thrive with dignity though. Is it not the dignity and thriving aspect that's ultimately important? What things make you thrive? What things make you feel dignified? Are they essential for your wellbeing? (personally speaking, like many people I have eczema, and my wellbeing tends to be diminished by having a scraped anus)
  - kredd 3y ago
    Care to elaborate? Obviously something “essential” is a subjective take other than the most basics like “food and shelter”. Walking or being able to take transit to my grocery store is a strict essential for me, but I am sure for people who live in suburbia it is not. I was born and raised in a city with >2M population, and surely my needs are extremely different than someone who is accustomed to a rural life. Even small things like, sleeping in an extremely quiet rural town has been a torture for me every time I tried it. And I am sure, opposite is true for people who are used to hearing absolutely no sounds at night.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    I think you’re the one not quite getting it. For instance… I am medically… complicated. Living somewhere rural where I’m more than 10 or 15 minutes from an ER isn’t really viable for me. Well, I mean, it would be, right up until it isn’t.
    - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
      My mother is the same way (quadruple bypass that didn't go well). She absolutely lives near a hospital. I live in a city, just one that's LCOL. Hell, one of our hospitals is renowned for it's heart research.
BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
> The problem is that people who can't afford that think it is a hate crime if they can't afford to live in Brooklyn with the rest of the hipsters. City planning is hard, but it's absolutely the case that cities just do it very stupidly and poorly and myopically and to preserve the wealth of the wealthy at the expense of the everyone else. There are not any good reasons for Cambridge, MA to have a 35 foot maximum height limit, only shitty ones. It's not a hate crime, but it is both hateful and a crime against society.
- ltbarcly3 3y ago
  It's literally not a crime, and it's not even an action motivated out of hate. I think it would do you good to work out the difference between things that make you angry and things that are unjust. I agree with you, transportation and planning is intentionally manipulated by wealthy landlords to maintain their high rents. Absolutely. So don't live there? Don't base your self worth on how impressive the resume's of your neighbors are? Find other neighborhoods that aren't based on inherited multi-generational snobbery and artificially restricting access to education to elite morons?
  - BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
    > It's literally not a crime You're using a specific definition of "crime" that is different than the one the people you're arguing against are using, and that makes the argument not apt. Being shameful for causing harm is also what calling something a crime can mean. See: https://ibb.co/xS3wnhg https://ibb.co/xS3wnhg
    - ltbarcly3 3y ago
      Right, you are using a second or forth definition of crime, changing to that despite the original context of the first definition. I'm the one who originally said it's not a hate crime, as much as people act like it is. That you would then accuse me of trying to play games with definitions is really quite remarkable. But lets go along with your desire to get away with using your definition instead of the original way the word was used in this context. Is it really a 'grave offense against morality' for a city to democratically decide to not allow skyscrapers? What would be the consequence of not allowing skyscrapers, is it that people like BugsJustFindMe starve to death? nope. That you will be deprived of basic human needs like shelter or the right to self determination? nope. The 'grave moral harm' done to you is that you can't afford to live within walking distance to that cool bar you like to go to. How ridiculous are you going to be?

kredd 3y ago

Your “non-essential” is someone else’s “essential”. Everyone has different needs and wants, and it’s just a useless flamewar. It’s the same as the discussion of whether the cities should stop subsidizing suburbs and other areas. Absolutely useless as everyone have their preferences and we have to find some sort of compromise.

ltbarcly3 3y ago
> Your “non-essential” is someone else’s “essential”. I don't think this word means what you think it means.
- BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
  What things are essential? A tent, water fountain, and scavenged scraps will keep someone alive. Is a toilet essential, or could you just use the street like the birds and squirrels do without complaint? Is a bidet essential, or could you scrape your anus with paper until you see spots of blood like many americans do? Is internet access essential or could you just go to the library which is free and open to all? I think there are not any objective definitions of what makes a housing situation essential. So in that light, I think if we're going to consider physical needs, we should probably also consider emotional wellbeing.
  - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
    well, as someone who grew up extremely poor (to the point of living in a tent on the side of the river in HS) I'm here to tell you nothing you mentioned is essential. I looked up the average salary in NYC out of curiosity and I make well above the average there. but I live extremely cheaply and part of that is the lessons I learned as a child. I could afford a much bigger house, much nicer cars, more toys. I choose not to. I know people who will finish paying off a vehicle and turn it in for another one. Not essential. Just because someone _feels_ as though something is important doesn't mean that it is. The difference between middle class and poor is that poor has to deal with reality, middle class gets to keep the delusion that things like nice cars are essential. These people are choosing not to move. It's great that they can afford it but maybe they should stop complaining vociferously about how victimized they are for choosing to live in that area.
    - BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
      > I'm here to tell you nothing you mentioned is essential. Good, then nothing is essential and we can stop worrying about whether something is essential or not and go back to talking about desirable.
      - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
        I don't know that I would take that stance but certainly a bidet and a nice car do not fall under that category, nor does being able to walk to a restaurant. You may try and argue some of the grey areas, but most of the things you listed are _clearly_ not essential, they're desirable by specific people, as you said.
        BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
        What makes a toilet essential but not a bidet? Plenty of people manage to survive without toilets. Some of them even in downtown San Francisco (you can tell by the state of the sidewalks). They don't tend to thrive with dignity though. Is it not the dignity and thriving aspect that's ultimately important? What things make you thrive? What things make you feel dignified? Are they essential for your wellbeing? (personally speaking, like many people I have eczema, and my wellbeing tends to be diminished by having a scraped anus)
- kredd 3y ago
  Care to elaborate? Obviously something “essential” is a subjective take other than the most basics like “food and shelter”. Walking or being able to take transit to my grocery store is a strict essential for me, but I am sure for people who live in suburbia it is not. I was born and raised in a city with >2M population, and surely my needs are extremely different than someone who is accustomed to a rural life. Even small things like, sleeping in an extremely quiet rural town has been a torture for me every time I tried it. And I am sure, opposite is true for people who are used to hearing absolutely no sounds at night.
- TylerE 3y ago
  I think you’re the one not quite getting it. For instance… I am medically… complicated. Living somewhere rural where I’m more than 10 or 15 minutes from an ER isn’t really viable for me. Well, I mean, it would be, right up until it isn’t.
  - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
    My mother is the same way (quadruple bypass that didn't go well). She absolutely lives near a hospital. I live in a city, just one that's LCOL. Hell, one of our hospitals is renowned for it's heart research.

BugsJustFindMe 3y ago

> The problem is that people who can't afford that think it is a hate crime if they can't afford to live in Brooklyn with the rest of the hipsters. City planning is hard, but it's absolutely the case that cities just do it very stupidly and poorly and myopically and to preserve the wealth of the wealthy at the expense of the everyone else. There are not any good reasons for Cambridge, MA to have a 35 foot maximum height limit, only shitty ones. It's not a hate crime, but it is both hateful and a crime against society.

ltbarcly3 3y ago
It's literally not a crime, and it's not even an action motivated out of hate. I think it would do you good to work out the difference between things that make you angry and things that are unjust. I agree with you, transportation and planning is intentionally manipulated by wealthy landlords to maintain their high rents. Absolutely. So don't live there? Don't base your self worth on how impressive the resume's of your neighbors are? Find other neighborhoods that aren't based on inherited multi-generational snobbery and artificially restricting access to education to elite morons?
- BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
  > It's literally not a crime You're using a specific definition of "crime" that is different than the one the people you're arguing against are using, and that makes the argument not apt. Being shameful for causing harm is also what calling something a crime can mean. See: https://ibb.co/xS3wnhg https://ibb.co/xS3wnhg
  - ltbarcly3 3y ago
    Right, you are using a second or forth definition of crime, changing to that despite the original context of the first definition. I'm the one who originally said it's not a hate crime, as much as people act like it is. That you would then accuse me of trying to play games with definitions is really quite remarkable. But lets go along with your desire to get away with using your definition instead of the original way the word was used in this context. Is it really a 'grave offense against morality' for a city to democratically decide to not allow skyscrapers? What would be the consequence of not allowing skyscrapers, is it that people like BugsJustFindMe starve to death? nope. That you will be deprived of basic human needs like shelter or the right to self determination? nope. The 'grave moral harm' done to you is that you can't afford to live within walking distance to that cool bar you like to go to. How ridiculous are you going to be?