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> HTML is the native language for describing UI in the browser In the same way that assembler is the native language for giving instructions to the CPU. In pr

> HTML is the native language for describing UI in the browser In the same way that assembler is the native language for giving instructions to the CPU. In practice, it is of zero importance, because there are powerful abstractions built on top of it, with wonderful benefits once you’re building anything more complicated than one-page documents.

bl4kers 3y ago
It's quite important for accessibility.
- threatofrain 3y ago
  I've found that web accessibility often calls for nice templates and abstraction, not less, because you often need to do some dynamic rewriting. For example, in a world where components are embedded into different places on a website and where users might submit rich text content, you have to rewrite their headers (h1...h6) to fit with accessibility guidelines.
jmull 3y ago
That's not the same because the abstraction a mature computer language provides is nearly complete (not totally complete, of course, but the situations where you ought to go digging through machine code or lower are pretty rare). Outside of games, almost all the frameworks people use don't try to do that -- you are essentially trying to write HTML, but using the syntax of a different language, or each HTML thing in a thing from a different language. (Flutter is the exception -- it really does try to provide a complete abstraction, though it's certainly not without its tradeoffs.)
nine_k 3y ago
Abstractions are great, as long as you understand their performance implications. Some are essentially free, some are surprisingly costly if you hold them wrong. Sadly, there's no way around understanding HTML and CSS when you need to troubleshoot what a high-level framework built for you. (Or maybe there is! Render everything using WebGL, the way Flutter does, and Flash did before it. But it's a different kettle of fish.)
- Charon77 3y ago
  That is what's called a leaky abstraction. Think, how often do you write a javascript code and think to yourself to debug it by understanding the underlying assembler code. I'd guess it's nil. But abstractions to html leaks a lot. Leaky abstractions are never good as now you have to think about your cool framework and the underlying library.
amadeuspagel 3y ago
Open the browsers dev tools and you see HTML. Read MDN and you see HTML. Constantly translating back and forth between that and another language isn't worth it.
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  Though if there was a better language to describe the UI which is as performant, widely supported and documented as HTML, I can easily see people using it. Maybe someone will start that project today based on my comment, and a decade later browsers will integrate it natively because it's such a success and everyone is using it :).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
problem is, the most important "abstractions" for describing the UI are not built "on top of" HTML, but along side it (CSS and to a limited degree JS). the relationship between contemporary "frameworks" and HTML is not like that of C and assembler or even Rust and assembler. It is more like that of a driver of a vehicle that has each of a gasoline, electric and steam powered motor, and must constantly pick which one to use for a given situation (sometimes two and occasionally all three).

bl4kers 3y ago

It's quite important for accessibility.

threatofrain 3y ago
I've found that web accessibility often calls for nice templates and abstraction, not less, because you often need to do some dynamic rewriting. For example, in a world where components are embedded into different places on a website and where users might submit rich text content, you have to rewrite their headers (h1...h6) to fit with accessibility guidelines.

jmull 3y ago

That's not the same because the abstraction a mature computer language provides is nearly complete (not totally complete, of course, but the situations where you ought to go digging through machine code or lower are pretty rare). Outside of games, almost all the frameworks people use don't try to do that -- you are essentially trying to write HTML, but using the syntax of a different language, or each HTML thing in a thing from a different language. (Flutter is the exception -- it really does try to provide a complete abstraction, though it's certainly not without its tradeoffs.)

nine_k 3y ago

Abstractions are great, as long as you understand their performance implications. Some are essentially free, some are surprisingly costly if you hold them wrong. Sadly, there's no way around understanding HTML and CSS when you need to troubleshoot what a high-level framework built for you. (Or maybe there is! Render everything using WebGL, the way Flutter does, and Flash did before it. But it's a different kettle of fish.)

Charon77 3y ago
That is what's called a leaky abstraction. Think, how often do you write a javascript code and think to yourself to debug it by understanding the underlying assembler code. I'd guess it's nil. But abstractions to html leaks a lot. Leaky abstractions are never good as now you have to think about your cool framework and the underlying library.

amadeuspagel 3y ago

Open the browsers dev tools and you see HTML. Read MDN and you see HTML. Constantly translating back and forth between that and another language isn't worth it.

Aerbil313 3y ago
Though if there was a better language to describe the UI which is as performant, widely supported and documented as HTML, I can easily see people using it. Maybe someone will start that project today based on my comment, and a decade later browsers will integrate it natively because it's such a success and everyone is using it :).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

problem is, the most important "abstractions" for describing the UI are not built "on top of" HTML, but along side it (CSS and to a limited degree JS). the relationship between contemporary "frameworks" and HTML is not like that of C and assembler or even Rust and assembler. It is more like that of a driver of a vehicle that has each of a gasoline, electric and steam powered motor, and must constantly pick which one to use for a given situation (sometimes two and occasionally all three).