8 ms·

Poland has a system where it's basically impossible to evict anybody if you rent under the standard rules. However, there exists a special type of contract whic

Poland has a system where it's basically impossible to evict anybody if you rent under the standard rules. However, there exists a special type of contract which allows for quick and painless eviction, but where the tenant must provide proof that they have a place to stay at, either a deed to a property they own or a declaration from somebody who is willing to take them in. A lot of landlords insist on this type of contract, which makes it much harder to find housing for foreigners and those who decided to cut contact with their families. Landlords basically have no other option, we don't really have a credit score system like the US does, so it's much harder to verify how trustworthy you are. There are agencies that can tell you if somebody's currently in debt or not, but as far as I'm aware, somebody with no credit history is basically indistinguishable from somebody with "good" history.

bombcar 3y ago
These kinds of things are side-effects of "tenant's rights" laws. Some may consider it the end-goal, to be fair - as eventually you'd drive landlords completely out of business. The problem is that this is antithetical to higher density, because you need landlords of some form if you have anything denser than a duplex. You can have condos perhaps, but not everyone can afford to get into one, or even wants to. And if there's a lack of landlords willing to rent, there will be a lack of landlords willing to build to rent, and so the housing stock will continue to increase at a glacial pace. The laws of unintended consequences can strike in weird ways - making it easier to evict may result in more housing in total ...
- techbrovanguard 3y ago
  > Some may consider it the end-goal, to be fair - as eventually you'd drive landlords completely out of business. Great! Housing should never have been allowed to become a commodity.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Did you read the rest of the comment? How do you solve the problem of condo owners not maintaining a property and letting problems fester for a couple decades after which they might be dead or move out?
    - seszett 3y ago
      Condos are just a kind of appartement, right? There is normally a kind of owners assembly in which the various owners can take (binding) decisions or action regarding such problems or anything that concerns the building as a whole. It might not be mandatory in all countries I suppose, but it should be.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        It's called a home owner's associate or condo board or similar. And a relatively common issue is underfunding it, so one of the things you have to be aware of if buying a "used" condo is how funded the association is, or you may find that the "deal" you got compared to others in the area is because you're going to be hit with a $50k additional assessment in a few years to fix deferred maintenance. Extreme examples include: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfside_condominium_collapse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfside_condominium_collapse
  - carom 3y ago
    This is really the theme of this thread. You hate renters and want a world of single family homes or massive government intervention. Landlords meet a housing need, taking property they own and subdividing it so it is affordable for others to live in an area.
    - lazide 3y ago
      It wouldn't surprise me if they are personally a frustrated renter who can't see or manage the expectations that are making them frustrated. Been there, it sucks. Turns out I had a deeply manipulative set of folks around me at the time, and I was also wildly desensitized/in denial to my own needs. I cannot express how much pain occurred to figure that out! Still occurring. The good news for them is, in 5-10 years the dynamics will likely look very different. It's already been changing against landlords, for instance with the covid rent holds, rent control expanding in some areas, cost of money rising and changing market dynamics, etc. I expect a lot of landlords will be trying to exit shortly, and the ones who think they can't are going to be trying to squeeze as much return as they can - as their expected future return due to speculative property prices disappears. So poster - it might be more worthwhile taking an inventory of who is around you (and if the influence they have is helping you), what YOU actually want your life to look like long term and your own values, and figure out how to get there and if you're willing to pay that price or not.
  - lazide 3y ago
    The pro of it being a commodity (widely available, easily traded, of easily quantifiable quality and accessible quantity) is important to get what you say you want! For 'sellers', it actually makes life a bit harder as they have much smaller profit margins in general and need to get very good at what they do to compete. If you think making housing not a commodity is going to make it easier to access, you're not paying attention. It may produce more bespoke, custom houses though. But they'll only go to those who can afford to do a LOT more to get it. The reason why that listing has a $15k broker fee is exactly BECAUSE of the weird and hard to deal with reality that is a rent controlled apartment in NYC. There are probably other off the books type things going on too, IMO. If you want something transparent and easy to get for the average person, making it a commodity with clear rules is exactly what you want! If you want to incentivize gaming the system, the other direction encourages that. Regardless of if it is a commodity or not, there needs to be constant vigilance regarding manipulation, scams, etc. Scams and manipulations are easier to hide when goods AREN'T commodities. There are some amazing horror stories (on both 'sides' of the economy) behind NYC rent controlled apartments and living in NYC in general. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commodity https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commodity] From the link: "1 : an economic good: such as a : a product of agriculture or mining agricultural commodities like grain and corn b : an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment reported the damaged commodities to officials c : a mass-produced unspecialized product commodity chemicals commodity memory chips 2 a : something useful or valued that valuable commodity, patience also : THING, ENTITY b : CONVENIENCE, ADVANTAGE … the many commodities incidental to the life of a public office … —Charles Lamb 3 : a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance of factors (such as brand name) other than price 4 : one that is subject to ready exchange or exploitation within a market … stars as individuals and as commodities of the film industry. —Film Quarterly 5 obsolete : QUANTITY, LOT"
- Tijdreiziger 3y ago
  The solution is strengthening the social housing sector. If anybody would be able to rent housing from the state, nobody would be dependent on private landlords (though private landlords could still fill niches like short-time rentals). As it is though, the social housing sector is woefully underfunded, leading to sometimes decades-long waiting lists (at least where I live, in the Netherlands).
  - jorvi 3y ago
    We also have the clown situation where you are deemed fit to rent for €1200 a month, but the banks won’t give you a €900 a month mortgage for the same sort of housing.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      The USA often has the opposite problem; people who would be refused rentals at $900 are given loans at $1200, no problem. The key is which ones insulate the giver (landlord/lender) from non-payment (e.g., which are guaranteed by the government).
      - jorvi 3y ago
        The problem is that it really adds insult to injury. In the aforementioned situation, the home owner is both creating equity and saving 25% extra each month. It creates a very broken situation. But the Dutch government has coddled home owners for four to five decades already. And the real estate market is often zero sum, where advantaging one group disadvantages another. Time to make home owners bleed for a couple of decades. Balance must be restored.
  - username332211 3y ago
    If we're talking about this sort of solutions, we must nevertheless implement a means to manage demand. After all, it's impossible to house the entire Netherlands in Amsterdam. In countries where housing was socialized they had a system of residency. You couldn't move to another city, without a permit. If you live in Tholen, you shouldn't be able to move to Amsterdam, unless you mary someone from there or if society determines there's a social need for more workers in the capital. After all, you can't socialize things while maintaining bourgeois concepts like "freedom of movement". You can't eat the cake and have it too, right?
- bbor 3y ago
  > you need landlords of some form if you have anything denser than a duplex Why? What value do they provide, other than having a bunch of money upfront? I’d argue there are many, many ways to fund building construction other than for-profit ownership
  - loeg 3y ago
    > What value do they provide, other than having a bunch of money upfront? Providing capital is useful! You can't just ignore that.
    - Scarblac 3y ago
      Yes, but that's what banks and mortgages are for already.
      - loeg 3y ago
        If that is the only function, why don’t renters buy instead of renting?
    - bbor 3y ago
      Why don’t they issue a loan then, and get paid back with interest? It’s insane that our system, by design, has an underclass that is earning WAY less because they can’t afford the entry price for a home, so all their rent for years and years goes into someone else’s pocket instead of their own equity. IMO
      - bombcar 3y ago
        For the same reason the banks won’t lend to the same people. Sure, some renters can qualify for a home loan and choose not to, but not all can. And it’s much much much easier to eventually evict someone and lose thousands than to try to get loaned money back from someone who is judgement proof, losing hundreds of thousands.
        3y ago
- username332211 3y ago
  > The problem is that this is antithetical to higher density, because you need landlords of some form if you have anything denser than a duplex. Most of Europe somehow manages to live in individually-owned private apartments. Even if you rent, the landlord will rarely own the entire building.
- no_wizard 3y ago
  I always found this funny, because housing is required for all of us but tenants rights is controversial where as all the incentives we give to builders / owners / landlords isn’t questioned nearly the same. Perhaps we should adjust those incentives more instead to align with tenants and occupancy home owners and stop treating everything about housing as investments
  - bombcar 3y ago
    The thirty year fixed mortgage has been a disaster for the housing market.
    - lazide 3y ago
      Also, the thirty year fixed mortgage has been a boon for the housing market and several generations who 'got in early'. Just like school loans. Automobile loans. Etc.
Dries007 3y ago
> but as far as I'm aware, somebody with no credit history is basically indistinguishable from somebody with "good" history. As it should be. Why would you want to allow someone to be judged for _not_ having been in debt in the past? You can always ask for references if they rented before, that might help somewhat.
- lazide 3y ago
  Because businesses need to make money to exist. Credit history == has successfully made other people money in the past, and if past behavior is indicative of future behavior, they likely will to someone else too.
  - Tijdreiziger 3y ago
    If I pay a landlord rent every month, I make them money. I don’t need to take on any debt for that.
    - jrockway 3y ago
      You will be happy to know that the big property management companies are willing to charge you an extra per-month fee to report your rent payment history to credit reporting agencies. To some extent, renting an apartment does take on some debt. You're basically being loaned the property in exchange for making interest payments.
      - FireBeyond 3y ago
        > You will be happy to know that the big property management companies are willing to charge you an extra per-month fee to report your rent payment history to credit reporting agencies. Which, to me, they should not be allowed to do. I'm yet to find a rental property that lets you pay rent in arrears, so there's absolutely no use of credit occurring.
        lazide 3y ago
sofixa 3y ago
> Landlords basically have no other option, we don't really have a credit score system like the US does, so it's much harder to verify how trustworthy you are. There are agencies that can tell you if somebody's currently in debt or not, but as far as I'm aware, somebody with no credit history is basically indistinguishable from somebody with "good" history. And that's actually good. What more could you possibly need to know other than a person's revenues and their debt to be able to decide if they're capable of paying rent? Why would you care if they've had or had not had debt previously? The American credit score system is dystopian (it can literally make or break your life because it's being abused by prospective landlords or employers) and broken (made by private entities who suffer no consequences in case of mistakes, be they leaking your data or mistaking identities).
- lokar 3y ago
  Some people have a long history of non payment, damages to property and evictions. If you can’t filter these people out you get an adverse selection kind of problem and everyone pays (one way or another)
  - sofixa 3y ago
    And if they make revenues and aren't overburdened by debt, you can sue them to recoup the damages from those revenues.
    - lazide 3y ago
      The issue is the real problem folks are often 'judgement proof'. No assets, no (official) income, or plenty of legal excuses to delay and defer actually doing what they were supposed to do. Also, often in pretty bad shape, so easy to take pity on. Until they screw you personally, anyway.
      - sofixa 3y ago
        > No assets, no (official) income, or plenty of legal excuses to delay and defer actually doing what they were supposed to do And that would be easy to see when you ask them for proof of revenue before renting to them...
lifestyleguru 3y ago
Perhaps stop owning half dozen of mostly uninhabited apartments so tenant laws will not be your problem. It's that simple, seriously feck off with your money somewhere else. If you are so smart and rich buy something in Zurich or Monaco. Poor oppressed real estate hoarders. You want to hoard real estate, evict tenants at will, and masturbate to the perpetual growth of real estate price index. > we don't really have a credit score system like the US does Shady predatory credit rating agencies like in US or even Germany are abomination, it's a thing to avoid not to follow.

bombcar 3y ago

These kinds of things are side-effects of "tenant's rights" laws. Some may consider it the end-goal, to be fair - as eventually you'd drive landlords completely out of business. The problem is that this is antithetical to higher density, because you need landlords of some form if you have anything denser than a duplex. You can have condos perhaps, but not everyone can afford to get into one, or even wants to. And if there's a lack of landlords willing to rent, there will be a lack of landlords willing to build to rent, and so the housing stock will continue to increase at a glacial pace. The laws of unintended consequences can strike in weird ways - making it easier to evict may result in more housing in total ...

techbrovanguard 3y ago
> Some may consider it the end-goal, to be fair - as eventually you'd drive landlords completely out of business. Great! Housing should never have been allowed to become a commodity.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Did you read the rest of the comment? How do you solve the problem of condo owners not maintaining a property and letting problems fester for a couple decades after which they might be dead or move out?
  - seszett 3y ago
    Condos are just a kind of appartement, right? There is normally a kind of owners assembly in which the various owners can take (binding) decisions or action regarding such problems or anything that concerns the building as a whole. It might not be mandatory in all countries I suppose, but it should be.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      It's called a home owner's associate or condo board or similar. And a relatively common issue is underfunding it, so one of the things you have to be aware of if buying a "used" condo is how funded the association is, or you may find that the "deal" you got compared to others in the area is because you're going to be hit with a $50k additional assessment in a few years to fix deferred maintenance. Extreme examples include: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfside_condominium_collapse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfside_condominium_collapse
- carom 3y ago
  This is really the theme of this thread. You hate renters and want a world of single family homes or massive government intervention. Landlords meet a housing need, taking property they own and subdividing it so it is affordable for others to live in an area.
  - lazide 3y ago
    It wouldn't surprise me if they are personally a frustrated renter who can't see or manage the expectations that are making them frustrated. Been there, it sucks. Turns out I had a deeply manipulative set of folks around me at the time, and I was also wildly desensitized/in denial to my own needs. I cannot express how much pain occurred to figure that out! Still occurring. The good news for them is, in 5-10 years the dynamics will likely look very different. It's already been changing against landlords, for instance with the covid rent holds, rent control expanding in some areas, cost of money rising and changing market dynamics, etc. I expect a lot of landlords will be trying to exit shortly, and the ones who think they can't are going to be trying to squeeze as much return as they can - as their expected future return due to speculative property prices disappears. So poster - it might be more worthwhile taking an inventory of who is around you (and if the influence they have is helping you), what YOU actually want your life to look like long term and your own values, and figure out how to get there and if you're willing to pay that price or not.
- lazide 3y ago
  The pro of it being a commodity (widely available, easily traded, of easily quantifiable quality and accessible quantity) is important to get what you say you want! For 'sellers', it actually makes life a bit harder as they have much smaller profit margins in general and need to get very good at what they do to compete. If you think making housing not a commodity is going to make it easier to access, you're not paying attention. It may produce more bespoke, custom houses though. But they'll only go to those who can afford to do a LOT more to get it. The reason why that listing has a $15k broker fee is exactly BECAUSE of the weird and hard to deal with reality that is a rent controlled apartment in NYC. There are probably other off the books type things going on too, IMO. If you want something transparent and easy to get for the average person, making it a commodity with clear rules is exactly what you want! If you want to incentivize gaming the system, the other direction encourages that. Regardless of if it is a commodity or not, there needs to be constant vigilance regarding manipulation, scams, etc. Scams and manipulations are easier to hide when goods AREN'T commodities. There are some amazing horror stories (on both 'sides' of the economy) behind NYC rent controlled apartments and living in NYC in general. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commodity https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commodity] From the link: "1 : an economic good: such as a : a product of agriculture or mining agricultural commodities like grain and corn b : an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment reported the damaged commodities to officials c : a mass-produced unspecialized product commodity chemicals commodity memory chips 2 a : something useful or valued that valuable commodity, patience also : THING, ENTITY b : CONVENIENCE, ADVANTAGE … the many commodities incidental to the life of a public office … —Charles Lamb 3 : a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance of factors (such as brand name) other than price 4 : one that is subject to ready exchange or exploitation within a market … stars as individuals and as commodities of the film industry. —Film Quarterly 5 obsolete : QUANTITY, LOT"
Tijdreiziger 3y ago
The solution is strengthening the social housing sector. If anybody would be able to rent housing from the state, nobody would be dependent on private landlords (though private landlords could still fill niches like short-time rentals). As it is though, the social housing sector is woefully underfunded, leading to sometimes decades-long waiting lists (at least where I live, in the Netherlands).
- jorvi 3y ago
  We also have the clown situation where you are deemed fit to rent for €1200 a month, but the banks won’t give you a €900 a month mortgage for the same sort of housing.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    The USA often has the opposite problem; people who would be refused rentals at $900 are given loans at $1200, no problem. The key is which ones insulate the giver (landlord/lender) from non-payment (e.g., which are guaranteed by the government).
    - jorvi 3y ago
      The problem is that it really adds insult to injury. In the aforementioned situation, the home owner is both creating equity and saving 25% extra each month. It creates a very broken situation. But the Dutch government has coddled home owners for four to five decades already. And the real estate market is often zero sum, where advantaging one group disadvantages another. Time to make home owners bleed for a couple of decades. Balance must be restored.
- username332211 3y ago
  If we're talking about this sort of solutions, we must nevertheless implement a means to manage demand. After all, it's impossible to house the entire Netherlands in Amsterdam. In countries where housing was socialized they had a system of residency. You couldn't move to another city, without a permit. If you live in Tholen, you shouldn't be able to move to Amsterdam, unless you mary someone from there or if society determines there's a social need for more workers in the capital. After all, you can't socialize things while maintaining bourgeois concepts like "freedom of movement". You can't eat the cake and have it too, right?
bbor 3y ago
> you need landlords of some form if you have anything denser than a duplex Why? What value do they provide, other than having a bunch of money upfront? I’d argue there are many, many ways to fund building construction other than for-profit ownership
- loeg 3y ago
  > What value do they provide, other than having a bunch of money upfront? Providing capital is useful! You can't just ignore that.
  - Scarblac 3y ago
    Yes, but that's what banks and mortgages are for already.
    - loeg 3y ago
      If that is the only function, why don’t renters buy instead of renting?
  - bbor 3y ago
    Why don’t they issue a loan then, and get paid back with interest? It’s insane that our system, by design, has an underclass that is earning WAY less because they can’t afford the entry price for a home, so all their rent for years and years goes into someone else’s pocket instead of their own equity. IMO
    - bombcar 3y ago
      For the same reason the banks won’t lend to the same people. Sure, some renters can qualify for a home loan and choose not to, but not all can. And it’s much much much easier to eventually evict someone and lose thousands than to try to get loaned money back from someone who is judgement proof, losing hundreds of thousands.
      - 3y ago
username332211 3y ago
> The problem is that this is antithetical to higher density, because you need landlords of some form if you have anything denser than a duplex. Most of Europe somehow manages to live in individually-owned private apartments. Even if you rent, the landlord will rarely own the entire building.
no_wizard 3y ago
I always found this funny, because housing is required for all of us but tenants rights is controversial where as all the incentives we give to builders / owners / landlords isn’t questioned nearly the same. Perhaps we should adjust those incentives more instead to align with tenants and occupancy home owners and stop treating everything about housing as investments
- bombcar 3y ago
  The thirty year fixed mortgage has been a disaster for the housing market.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Also, the thirty year fixed mortgage has been a boon for the housing market and several generations who 'got in early'. Just like school loans. Automobile loans. Etc.

Dries007 3y ago

> but as far as I'm aware, somebody with no credit history is basically indistinguishable from somebody with "good" history. As it should be. Why would you want to allow someone to be judged for _not_ having been in debt in the past? You can always ask for references if they rented before, that might help somewhat.

lazide 3y ago
Because businesses need to make money to exist. Credit history == has successfully made other people money in the past, and if past behavior is indicative of future behavior, they likely will to someone else too.
- Tijdreiziger 3y ago
  If I pay a landlord rent every month, I make them money. I don’t need to take on any debt for that.
  - jrockway 3y ago
    You will be happy to know that the big property management companies are willing to charge you an extra per-month fee to report your rent payment history to credit reporting agencies. To some extent, renting an apartment does take on some debt. You're basically being loaned the property in exchange for making interest payments.
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      > You will be happy to know that the big property management companies are willing to charge you an extra per-month fee to report your rent payment history to credit reporting agencies. Which, to me, they should not be allowed to do. I'm yet to find a rental property that lets you pay rent in arrears, so there's absolutely no use of credit occurring.
      - lazide 3y ago

sofixa 3y ago

> Landlords basically have no other option, we don't really have a credit score system like the US does, so it's much harder to verify how trustworthy you are. There are agencies that can tell you if somebody's currently in debt or not, but as far as I'm aware, somebody with no credit history is basically indistinguishable from somebody with "good" history. And that's actually good. What more could you possibly need to know other than a person's revenues and their debt to be able to decide if they're capable of paying rent? Why would you care if they've had or had not had debt previously? The American credit score system is dystopian (it can literally make or break your life because it's being abused by prospective landlords or employers) and broken (made by private entities who suffer no consequences in case of mistakes, be they leaking your data or mistaking identities).

lokar 3y ago
Some people have a long history of non payment, damages to property and evictions. If you can’t filter these people out you get an adverse selection kind of problem and everyone pays (one way or another)
- sofixa 3y ago
  And if they make revenues and aren't overburdened by debt, you can sue them to recoup the damages from those revenues.
  - lazide 3y ago
    The issue is the real problem folks are often 'judgement proof'. No assets, no (official) income, or plenty of legal excuses to delay and defer actually doing what they were supposed to do. Also, often in pretty bad shape, so easy to take pity on. Until they screw you personally, anyway.
    - sofixa 3y ago
      > No assets, no (official) income, or plenty of legal excuses to delay and defer actually doing what they were supposed to do And that would be easy to see when you ask them for proof of revenue before renting to them...

lifestyleguru 3y ago

Perhaps stop owning half dozen of mostly uninhabited apartments so tenant laws will not be your problem. It's that simple, seriously feck off with your money somewhere else. If you are so smart and rich buy something in Zurich or Monaco. Poor oppressed real estate hoarders. You want to hoard real estate, evict tenants at will, and masturbate to the perpetual growth of real estate price index. > we don't really have a credit score system like the US does Shady predatory credit rating agencies like in US or even Germany are abomination, it's a thing to avoid not to follow.