7 ms·

UK to replace physical biometric immigration cards with e-visas

47 points by edward 3y ago

Svip 3y ago
OK, but what does this mean for UK residents entering the Common Travel Area through Ireland? While not exactly the same, my wife is a Danish resident; when we travel in and out of the Schengen area, she needs to bring her residency card. While Danish passport control can phone up the right people, if she has forgotten her card, I doubt other Schengen area passport controls would/could. They could then tell from her stamps, that she had overstayed her visa in the Schengen area, and would not permit her in, if she entered the Schengen area outside Denmark and without the residency card. Is Irish passport control expected to look up UK residents' residency through the UK's website?
- secondcoming 3y ago
  Are you talking about travelling to the UK via Ireland? If so, the only time passports are typically checked is when you're about to board the plane. Even then it's just used for id purposes, it's not done by passport control. You don't even need a passport, just photo id, but it seems most people use their passport anyway. It's not unheard of that when landing in the UK from Ireland, there's no passport control at all. That may depend on the airport though.
  - Svip 3y ago
    No, I am talking about entering the Common Travel Area (CTA) through Ireland. Suppose I am a Canadian citizen and a UK resident, and I live in Belfast. I've been to Nova Scotia and I am travelling back through Dublin. Will Dublin's passport control be available to determine my visa given my Canadian passport?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
      I don't believe Canadian nationals need a visa to enter Ireland. But if you need to prove your UK residence status for whatever reason, you can log in to your UKVI account and generate a passcode that a third party can use to verify your status. https://www.gov.uk/view-prove-immigration-status https://www.gov.uk/view-prove-immigration-status
  - axsharma 3y ago
    While there is minimal or no passport control within the CTA, for example when travelling between UK and Ireland, the expectation is that the passenger is a citizen of a country whose nationals would not normally require a visa to enter either. This alone may not be sufficiently proven by an ID document like driving license, and some airlines will only accept passport for travel. https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/articles/12889174472721-What-do-I-need-to-check-in https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/articles/12889174472721-Wh... Having a long term residency visa in the UK, but an Indian passport for example, would not automatically qualify you for travel to Ireland without a separate visa, although lax checks within the CTA may, in theory, let you travel if no one looks hard enough and should an airline be satisfied with your UK driving licence alone (and assume you're either an Irish or British citizen). The requirment is further complicated by the fact that some third country nationals holding either a used and valid UK or Irish short term (tourist) visa can travel to either countries without issues due to the British-Irish Visa Scheme/treaty, but the same courtesy wouldn't apply to a third country national with a (long term) UK BRP - they'd need a separate visa for Ireland. Border checks or lack thereof in the CTA are a rather interesting subject matter.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  > Is Irish passport control expected to look up UK residents' residency through the UK's website? Yes they probably can and will do that if the need arises
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    I've never been asked for anything pertaining to the UK when entering Ireland anyway. I go to Ireland regularly but I've decided never to visit the UK again or do business there since Brexit. If they don't want us Europeans there I don't want them :P
    - raverbashing 3y ago
      They will only ask if you're connecting there (or saying you're going there). (And vice versa, you (should) go through the UK Border if you're connecting to Ireland through a UK airport)
- lxgr 3y ago
  Family members of EU citizens are allowed entry into and free movement within the Schengen area by law. Showing or even owning a residency card is not required to exercise that right, which makes it quite different to the situation in various other countries, where that right is actually tied to having completed some bureaucratic act in addition to qualifying for it. Of course it makes it much easier – carrying a marriage certificate is obviously less practical than the card, and that's why it exists. But as far as I know, Schengen border posts are required to accept the marriage certificate as well. A weird detail is that this right technically does not apply in the EU citizen's home country, but since you mentioned that Danish authorities can figure it out by phone, that shouldn't be an issue in your case.
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
  > They could then tell from her stamps, that she had overstayed her visa in the Schengen area, and would not permit her in, if she entered the Schengen area outside Denmark and without the residency card. All Frontex (Schengen border control) officials have access to VIS, the Visa Information System, which is part of SIS, the Schengen Information System. As a result, they can verify residency status with nothing more than name and date of birth (or, of course, from a passport).
the_mitsuhiko 3y ago
Unless we get these standardized I think this is a really had move. What at lot of politicians forget is that these cards have utility in countries other than their own. For instance these cards are commonly used all over Europe right now for foreigners to open bank accounts, benefit from visa simplification regimes etc. Taking away that portability of a basic document is going to be to the disadvantage of many.
- dogma1138 3y ago
  These cards are not a valid form of ID in the UK, you can’t open a bank account with a biometric permit. If you are a foreigner on a visa you have to use your passport to open a bank account, all the card does is prove that you have temporary or permanent leave to remain. They currently have absolutely no use other than border control. Source: I have one.
  - axsharma 3y ago
    You need your passport if you've only got a vignette or in-passport visa sticker. BRP is often accepted, in lieu of driving license for bank account opening. https://www.lloydsbank.com/legal/proof-of-identity.html https://www.lloydsbank.com/legal/proof-of-identity.html I wouldn't call it a "not valid form of ID," when you can use them to board domestic flights, prove your age at establishments, and practically use it as an ID where they'd otherwise accept a driving license for ID. PS: I hold one too.
    - dogma1138 3y ago
      If you look at Lloyd’s under the actual documents accepted they don’t list it there. They even state that: “The Biometric Residence Permit card may not be accepted in all our online journeys. You may need to provide additional documentation.” Both HSBC and Barclays don’t accept them, not even to pick up a card from a branch. EU identity cards are accepted but UK BRP and BRCs aren’t https://noidnosale.com/acceptable-forms-of-id-in-the-uk https://noidnosale.com/acceptable-forms-of-id-in-the-uk If you managed to use yours for anything other than border control then it’s because whoever inspected it didn’t knew the rules.
jmyeet 3y ago
Many of us here are aware of how bad the US immigration system is. It's expensive, time-consuming and arbitrarily capricious. What many may not realize is how UK immigration law has been transformed in the last decade to be much, much worse. Before ~2010, if a UK citizen married a non-UK citizen and wanted to get them residency and ultimately citizenship, it would be relatively simple and not terribly expensive. It took (IIRC) ~1 year to get ILR (Indefinite Leave to Remain; basically a green card) for their spouse and 4-5 years to get citizenship. In the US that takes 4-5 years (1-2 years to get the green card then 3 years to get citizenship) generally. Now that process typically takes ~10 years minimum, has all sorts of requirements and will cost you in excess of 10,000 pounds once you add up all the fees along the way. The requirements are things like a "Life in the UK" test but now also a hefty income requirement, going up to (IIRC) ~38,000 pounds per year from next year. So I have to look at all moves the UK makes in this area through this lens of increasing isolationism post-Brexit. Physical residence cards do have advantages. You can use them as ID. They clearly have disadvantages too. For example, US LPRs are technically required to carry their green card on them at all times. If they lose it, a replacement costs ~$500 (last time I checked) and takes roughly ONE YEAR to replace. If you lose it while overseas, well that's going to be a huge problem. US citizens can get a passport within days if they try and within a day or two if lost while overseas from a US consulate or embassy. At the same time, there's really no need for a physical card. Any government official or financial institution or employer should be able to verify your status electronically. I can't help but think that this is somehow designed to make life more difficult for legal migrants in some way though.
- graemep 3y ago
  Nothing to do with Brexit - as you said this has been getting more difficult for decades. Post Brexit it has become easier for people from outside the EU to get some types of British visas so if anything the UK is less isolationist than when it made it very hard for anyone from outside the EU to enter. MY biggest concern is that with any new system replacing a proven one. The other is that right to work and right to rent checks may not work as expected. While the article says these can already be done online, not everyone doing them (the biggest problem will be landlords who own a single property) will know what they are supposed to do.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
FpUser 3y ago
They already had Windrush scandal. I have no doubts this "invention" given a time will leave numerous victims in it's wake. There are so many ways it can fuck things up. Oh and while reading the article I've discovered "right to rent". A citadel of freedom this country is. Are they taking lessons from former USSR?
amaccuish 3y ago
Even after Googling I can't find the answer: what would you show then at the boarder? On their website, the "share code" seems to only be for non-governmental use. Is your passport number then linked to the visa? What happens if you get a new passport? Does it work for non-biometric passports? Or is there some kind of stable "citizen" identifier in the passport that the visa is linked to? I can't imagine it being a simple name + DoB lookup.
Accacin 3y ago
I've already heard stories of people coming back to the UK from a trip abroad, and UK border staff insisted to see their BRP even though it's acceptable now for it to be digital. I'm assuming it's going to be a right pain in the arse for my wife when she comes back to the UK from visiting family abroad.
- exe34 3y ago
  I recommend printing some documentation from the government website wherever it says that $x is allowed or $y is deprecated. It won't stop some officious c*nt at the border, but when they call their supervisor, the latter might be able to recognise enough of the words to look it up and figure it out.
- ghusbands 3y ago
  The article states that the change is due later. I know someone who received a BRP just days ago and was told that the electronic visa system isn't yet available. So the BRP has always been and remains mandatory for travel, until these changes take effect.
  - Accacin 3y ago
    As far as I know they are live. People are using the share codes for renting, etc. On /r/ukvisa I've seen a few stories already.
ugiox 3y ago
Ha, best part is in the first paragraph: > in a bid to make its borders digital, which is in-line with developed countries like Australia. lol. So England is not developed and compared to developed Australia. lol.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
citrin_ru 3y ago
Most likely it would create quite a few problems for BRP holders even if an online check on UK border will be flawless. 1. To apply for a visa (e.g. Schengen one) one need a proof of residence. While EU hopefully will start accepting online proof (may be a couple year later, EU bureaucracy is slow) other countries likely will stop accepting visa applications from UK residents in the UK. 2. Before non-UK citizens can checkin on a flight to the UK from another country they must show either a visa or a BRP. Knowing how some countries operate (paper, paper, paper) they would likely will ignore this online stuff and refuse to board without a physical proof.
lvamber 3y ago
[flagged]

47 points by edward 3y ago

Svip 3y ago

OK, but what does this mean for UK residents entering the Common Travel Area through Ireland? While not exactly the same, my wife is a Danish resident; when we travel in and out of the Schengen area, she needs to bring her residency card. While Danish passport control can phone up the right people, if she has forgotten her card, I doubt other Schengen area passport controls would/could. They could then tell from her stamps, that she had overstayed her visa in the Schengen area, and would not permit her in, if she entered the Schengen area outside Denmark and without the residency card. Is Irish passport control expected to look up UK residents' residency through the UK's website?

secondcoming 3y ago
Are you talking about travelling to the UK via Ireland? If so, the only time passports are typically checked is when you're about to board the plane. Even then it's just used for id purposes, it's not done by passport control. You don't even need a passport, just photo id, but it seems most people use their passport anyway. It's not unheard of that when landing in the UK from Ireland, there's no passport control at all. That may depend on the airport though.
- Svip 3y ago
  No, I am talking about entering the Common Travel Area (CTA) through Ireland. Suppose I am a Canadian citizen and a UK resident, and I live in Belfast. I've been to Nova Scotia and I am travelling back through Dublin. Will Dublin's passport control be available to determine my visa given my Canadian passport?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
    I don't believe Canadian nationals need a visa to enter Ireland. But if you need to prove your UK residence status for whatever reason, you can log in to your UKVI account and generate a passcode that a third party can use to verify your status. https://www.gov.uk/view-prove-immigration-status https://www.gov.uk/view-prove-immigration-status
- axsharma 3y ago
  While there is minimal or no passport control within the CTA, for example when travelling between UK and Ireland, the expectation is that the passenger is a citizen of a country whose nationals would not normally require a visa to enter either. This alone may not be sufficiently proven by an ID document like driving license, and some airlines will only accept passport for travel. https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/articles/12889174472721-What-do-I-need-to-check-in https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/articles/12889174472721-Wh... Having a long term residency visa in the UK, but an Indian passport for example, would not automatically qualify you for travel to Ireland without a separate visa, although lax checks within the CTA may, in theory, let you travel if no one looks hard enough and should an airline be satisfied with your UK driving licence alone (and assume you're either an Irish or British citizen). The requirment is further complicated by the fact that some third country nationals holding either a used and valid UK or Irish short term (tourist) visa can travel to either countries without issues due to the British-Irish Visa Scheme/treaty, but the same courtesy wouldn't apply to a third country national with a (long term) UK BRP - they'd need a separate visa for Ireland. Border checks or lack thereof in the CTA are a rather interesting subject matter.
raverbashing 3y ago
> Is Irish passport control expected to look up UK residents' residency through the UK's website? Yes they probably can and will do that if the need arises
- wkat4242 3y ago
  I've never been asked for anything pertaining to the UK when entering Ireland anyway. I go to Ireland regularly but I've decided never to visit the UK again or do business there since Brexit. If they don't want us Europeans there I don't want them :P
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    They will only ask if you're connecting there (or saying you're going there). (And vice versa, you (should) go through the UK Border if you're connecting to Ireland through a UK airport)
lxgr 3y ago
Family members of EU citizens are allowed entry into and free movement within the Schengen area by law. Showing or even owning a residency card is not required to exercise that right, which makes it quite different to the situation in various other countries, where that right is actually tied to having completed some bureaucratic act in addition to qualifying for it. Of course it makes it much easier – carrying a marriage certificate is obviously less practical than the card, and that's why it exists. But as far as I know, Schengen border posts are required to accept the marriage certificate as well. A weird detail is that this right technically does not apply in the EU citizen's home country, but since you mentioned that Danish authorities can figure it out by phone, that shouldn't be an issue in your case.
ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
> They could then tell from her stamps, that she had overstayed her visa in the Schengen area, and would not permit her in, if she entered the Schengen area outside Denmark and without the residency card. All Frontex (Schengen border control) officials have access to VIS, the Visa Information System, which is part of SIS, the Schengen Information System. As a result, they can verify residency status with nothing more than name and date of birth (or, of course, from a passport).

the_mitsuhiko 3y ago

Unless we get these standardized I think this is a really had move. What at lot of politicians forget is that these cards have utility in countries other than their own. For instance these cards are commonly used all over Europe right now for foreigners to open bank accounts, benefit from visa simplification regimes etc. Taking away that portability of a basic document is going to be to the disadvantage of many.

dogma1138 3y ago
These cards are not a valid form of ID in the UK, you can’t open a bank account with a biometric permit. If you are a foreigner on a visa you have to use your passport to open a bank account, all the card does is prove that you have temporary or permanent leave to remain. They currently have absolutely no use other than border control. Source: I have one.
- axsharma 3y ago
  You need your passport if you've only got a vignette or in-passport visa sticker. BRP is often accepted, in lieu of driving license for bank account opening. https://www.lloydsbank.com/legal/proof-of-identity.html https://www.lloydsbank.com/legal/proof-of-identity.html I wouldn't call it a "not valid form of ID," when you can use them to board domestic flights, prove your age at establishments, and practically use it as an ID where they'd otherwise accept a driving license for ID. PS: I hold one too.
  - dogma1138 3y ago
    If you look at Lloyd’s under the actual documents accepted they don’t list it there. They even state that: “The Biometric Residence Permit card may not be accepted in all our online journeys. You may need to provide additional documentation.” Both HSBC and Barclays don’t accept them, not even to pick up a card from a branch. EU identity cards are accepted but UK BRP and BRCs aren’t https://noidnosale.com/acceptable-forms-of-id-in-the-uk https://noidnosale.com/acceptable-forms-of-id-in-the-uk If you managed to use yours for anything other than border control then it’s because whoever inspected it didn’t knew the rules.

jmyeet 3y ago

Many of us here are aware of how bad the US immigration system is. It's expensive, time-consuming and arbitrarily capricious. What many may not realize is how UK immigration law has been transformed in the last decade to be much, much worse. Before ~2010, if a UK citizen married a non-UK citizen and wanted to get them residency and ultimately citizenship, it would be relatively simple and not terribly expensive. It took (IIRC) ~1 year to get ILR (Indefinite Leave to Remain; basically a green card) for their spouse and 4-5 years to get citizenship. In the US that takes 4-5 years (1-2 years to get the green card then 3 years to get citizenship) generally. Now that process typically takes ~10 years minimum, has all sorts of requirements and will cost you in excess of 10,000 pounds once you add up all the fees along the way. The requirements are things like a "Life in the UK" test but now also a hefty income requirement, going up to (IIRC) ~38,000 pounds per year from next year. So I have to look at all moves the UK makes in this area through this lens of increasing isolationism post-Brexit. Physical residence cards do have advantages. You can use them as ID. They clearly have disadvantages too. For example, US LPRs are technically required to carry their green card on them at all times. If they lose it, a replacement costs ~$500 (last time I checked) and takes roughly ONE YEAR to replace. If you lose it while overseas, well that's going to be a huge problem. US citizens can get a passport within days if they try and within a day or two if lost while overseas from a US consulate or embassy. At the same time, there's really no need for a physical card. Any government official or financial institution or employer should be able to verify your status electronically. I can't help but think that this is somehow designed to make life more difficult for legal migrants in some way though.

graemep 3y ago
Nothing to do with Brexit - as you said this has been getting more difficult for decades. Post Brexit it has become easier for people from outside the EU to get some types of British visas so if anything the UK is less isolationist than when it made it very hard for anyone from outside the EU to enter. MY biggest concern is that with any new system replacing a proven one. The other is that right to work and right to rent checks may not work as expected. While the article says these can already be done online, not everyone doing them (the biggest problem will be landlords who own a single property) will know what they are supposed to do.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

FpUser 3y ago

They already had Windrush scandal. I have no doubts this "invention" given a time will leave numerous victims in it's wake. There are so many ways it can fuck things up. Oh and while reading the article I've discovered "right to rent". A citadel of freedom this country is. Are they taking lessons from former USSR?

amaccuish 3y ago

Even after Googling I can't find the answer: what would you show then at the boarder? On their website, the "share code" seems to only be for non-governmental use. Is your passport number then linked to the visa? What happens if you get a new passport? Does it work for non-biometric passports? Or is there some kind of stable "citizen" identifier in the passport that the visa is linked to? I can't imagine it being a simple name + DoB lookup.

Accacin 3y ago

I've already heard stories of people coming back to the UK from a trip abroad, and UK border staff insisted to see their BRP even though it's acceptable now for it to be digital. I'm assuming it's going to be a right pain in the arse for my wife when she comes back to the UK from visiting family abroad.

exe34 3y ago
I recommend printing some documentation from the government website wherever it says that $x is allowed or $y is deprecated. It won't stop some officious c*nt at the border, but when they call their supervisor, the latter might be able to recognise enough of the words to look it up and figure it out.
ghusbands 3y ago
The article states that the change is due later. I know someone who received a BRP just days ago and was told that the electronic visa system isn't yet available. So the BRP has always been and remains mandatory for travel, until these changes take effect.
- Accacin 3y ago
  As far as I know they are live. People are using the share codes for renting, etc. On /r/ukvisa I've seen a few stories already.

ugiox 3y ago

Ha, best part is in the first paragraph: > in a bid to make its borders digital, which is in-line with developed countries like Australia. lol. So England is not developed and compared to developed Australia. lol.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

citrin_ru 3y ago

Most likely it would create quite a few problems for BRP holders even if an online check on UK border will be flawless. 1. To apply for a visa (e.g. Schengen one) one need a proof of residence. While EU hopefully will start accepting online proof (may be a couple year later, EU bureaucracy is slow) other countries likely will stop accepting visa applications from UK residents in the UK. 2. Before non-UK citizens can checkin on a flight to the UK from another country they must show either a visa or a BRP. Knowing how some countries operate (paper, paper, paper) they would likely will ignore this online stuff and refuse to board without a physical proof.

lvamber 3y ago

[flagged]