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> such a law obviously does not prevent people from using or learning their ethnic language It is only one measure of many that is driving the rapid decline of

by mopsi 3y ago

> such a law obviously does not prevent people from using or learning their ethnic language It is only one measure of many that is driving the rapid decline of indigenous peoples in Russia. Russia has a long history of methodical persecution of indigenous peoples with a wide arsenal that spans from closure of schools and suppression of media to made up charges about "extremism" and being a "foreign agent" to punitive psychiatry in the best Soviet traditions. Many languages and cultures have already become extinct like Native American tribes that were forced into conditions that caused a permanent loss of language, culture and identity. With official departure from the European Convention on Human Rights, the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, and other international treaties, Russia doesn't even bother to act like they care about human rights. The council that monitored how signatories enforced the framework convention used the same word in their reports about the situation of minorities as you did: marginalization, increasingly so. And it's gotten much worse since Putin decided to invade Ukraine in 2022. Russia is now decimating indigenous populations by disproportionally conscripting them to die in Ukraine. Buryats and Nenets are overrepresented by a factor of 50 in casualties compared to ethnic Russians from Moscow. Two genocides for the price of one - trying to overwhelm Ukrainian defenders by throwing indigenous peoples from Russia at them.

somenameforme 3y ago
My friend, what you're doing here is called gish galloping. [1] Pick something you find truly compelling and stick with it. A lot of the things you're saying are poorly supported, misleading, or probably plainly false. And FWIW I'm not saying you're doing this intentionally. "We" have been in an information warfare mode for the past 2 years, and the truth is only just recently starting to come out of this mess. We probably won't really know what's happened over the past 2 years for many years yet to come. So for example, I decided to look up the European Convention on Human Rights things, because it sounded pretty interesting. And what you've been told is not quite what happened. It seems that after the invasion of Ukraine, the relevant bureaucracy chose to suspend Russia's representation in such, so Russia announced a petition to withdraw from the organization, which the Council responded with, 'you can't quit, you're fired!' type stuff. [2] It's just the ongoing of weaponization of international organizations in the West, which ultimately serves little purpose other than to undermine their relevance and authority. Observe the the grossly incongruent responses to actions of Israel vs those of Russia. Organizations whose actions become driven by politics become seen as political actors, which entirely defeats their purpose. --- [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Council_of_Europe#Former_members https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Council_o...
- mopsi 3y ago
  > what you're doing here is called gish galloping. It wasn't me who changed the topic from blaming Poland for Hitler's invasion, to denial of the well-known persecution of indigenous peoples in Russia, to calling international human rights organizations weapons against the glorious Russian motherland. Denial of mistreatment of indigenous peoples is particularly nasty, because it has been a cornerstone of dissident Russian human rights and environmentalist movements for a very long time. Indigenous peoples inhabit many Russian regions rich in natural resources and they have seen persecution not only in the form of suppression of their language and culture, but also in the form of physical destruction of their native land through mismanaged and inefficient resource extraction that leaves behind toxic wastelands. "We don't want to live in moonscapes," as one activist put it: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/1/23/in-russia-indigenous-land-defenders-face-intimidation-and-exile https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/1/23/in-russia-indig... Would you prefer to return to how Hitler only wanted Danzig and other Nazi myths? For some unknown reason they are very widespread in Russia and have strong foothold among boomers like Putin.
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    Imagine I had a different perspective than you, tough to believe - I know. Now of course you are right, or you wouldn't think like you do. So wouldn't you want me to think, like you? Thus instead of turning to absurd hyperbole, speculation, ad hominem, straw men, and all other sorts of really great ways to debate a topic, why not simply try to calm down and coherently express yourself? I am genuinely curious, but your style of debate and discussion is a pretty big turn off. So here, it seems to me that your biggest and most compelling issue with Russia is the mistreatment of ethnic indigenous groups? But the article you linked to uses a lot of words to say very little. And what it does say is so absurdly one sided that it just completely omits any sort of detail whatsoever. For instance: --- Pressure on Sulyandziga began after he organised public hearings on pressure on an Evenki Indigenous community that developed a jade mine on their ancestral lands.. In 2012, the mine was taken over by the Rostec state-run corporation focusing on defence and hi-tech... That year, criminal charges were brought against community leaders, leading to confiscation of jade and land, activists say... Sulyandziga claimed he was accused by state officials of “separatism”, “espionage” and embezzlement... In 2016, Sulyandziga left for New York to deliver a speech at a UN session about Russia’s Indigenous rights situation. He says he never returned because a high-ranking security official told him that intelligence services planned to kill him and present his death as “suicide”. --- What was the conclusion of the charges? Why were they initially made and/or dismissed? What happened between 2012-2016? How did a random indigenous tribesman in Russia find himself able to present a speech in front of the UN? I feel like this article is trying to appeal to my emotions, and not my logic. I want details, I want logic, I want evidence. I want something that doesn't assume I already agree with the premise of what's being said, and thus will just happily accept anything they say. What really made you take up the issue of indigenous peoples in Russia as such a key cause? Was there some significant event that happened? Is it something personal? I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, and perhaps with such I might be able to see the world through your eyes. Make sense?

by mopsi 3y ago

somenameforme 3y ago

My friend, what you're doing here is called gish galloping. [1] Pick something you find truly compelling and stick with it. A lot of the things you're saying are poorly supported, misleading, or probably plainly false. And FWIW I'm not saying you're doing this intentionally. "We" have been in an information warfare mode for the past 2 years, and the truth is only just recently starting to come out of this mess. We probably won't really know what's happened over the past 2 years for many years yet to come. So for example, I decided to look up the European Convention on Human Rights things, because it sounded pretty interesting. And what you've been told is not quite what happened. It seems that after the invasion of Ukraine, the relevant bureaucracy chose to suspend Russia's representation in such, so Russia announced a petition to withdraw from the organization, which the Council responded with, 'you can't quit, you're fired!' type stuff. [2] It's just the ongoing of weaponization of international organizations in the West, which ultimately serves little purpose other than to undermine their relevance and authority. Observe the the grossly incongruent responses to actions of Israel vs those of Russia. Organizations whose actions become driven by politics become seen as political actors, which entirely defeats their purpose. --- [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Council_of_Europe#Former_members https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Council_o...

mopsi 3y ago
> what you're doing here is called gish galloping. It wasn't me who changed the topic from blaming Poland for Hitler's invasion, to denial of the well-known persecution of indigenous peoples in Russia, to calling international human rights organizations weapons against the glorious Russian motherland. Denial of mistreatment of indigenous peoples is particularly nasty, because it has been a cornerstone of dissident Russian human rights and environmentalist movements for a very long time. Indigenous peoples inhabit many Russian regions rich in natural resources and they have seen persecution not only in the form of suppression of their language and culture, but also in the form of physical destruction of their native land through mismanaged and inefficient resource extraction that leaves behind toxic wastelands. "We don't want to live in moonscapes," as one activist put it: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/1/23/in-russia-indigenous-land-defenders-face-intimidation-and-exile https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/1/23/in-russia-indig... Would you prefer to return to how Hitler only wanted Danzig and other Nazi myths? For some unknown reason they are very widespread in Russia and have strong foothold among boomers like Putin.
- somenameforme 3y ago
  Imagine I had a different perspective than you, tough to believe - I know. Now of course you are right, or you wouldn't think like you do. So wouldn't you want me to think, like you? Thus instead of turning to absurd hyperbole, speculation, ad hominem, straw men, and all other sorts of really great ways to debate a topic, why not simply try to calm down and coherently express yourself? I am genuinely curious, but your style of debate and discussion is a pretty big turn off. So here, it seems to me that your biggest and most compelling issue with Russia is the mistreatment of ethnic indigenous groups? But the article you linked to uses a lot of words to say very little. And what it does say is so absurdly one sided that it just completely omits any sort of detail whatsoever. For instance: --- Pressure on Sulyandziga began after he organised public hearings on pressure on an Evenki Indigenous community that developed a jade mine on their ancestral lands.. In 2012, the mine was taken over by the Rostec state-run corporation focusing on defence and hi-tech... That year, criminal charges were brought against community leaders, leading to confiscation of jade and land, activists say... Sulyandziga claimed he was accused by state officials of “separatism”, “espionage” and embezzlement... In 2016, Sulyandziga left for New York to deliver a speech at a UN session about Russia’s Indigenous rights situation. He says he never returned because a high-ranking security official told him that intelligence services planned to kill him and present his death as “suicide”. --- What was the conclusion of the charges? Why were they initially made and/or dismissed? What happened between 2012-2016? How did a random indigenous tribesman in Russia find himself able to present a speech in front of the UN? I feel like this article is trying to appeal to my emotions, and not my logic. I want details, I want logic, I want evidence. I want something that doesn't assume I already agree with the premise of what's being said, and thus will just happily accept anything they say. What really made you take up the issue of indigenous peoples in Russia as such a key cause? Was there some significant event that happened? Is it something personal? I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, and perhaps with such I might be able to see the world through your eyes. Make sense?