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In conflict, both sides try to demonize the other side, often using what are shown to be grossly exaggerated, and sometimes plainly false, claims. And it's not

In conflict, both sides try to demonize the other side, often using what are shown to be grossly exaggerated, and sometimes plainly false, claims. And it's not just "the other side" that does it. You should contrast what you read, when it sounds extreme, with what you know to be true outside of these claims. So for instance, Russia has more ethnicities than near to any other nation, with something like 185 different recognized ethnicities [1] living in the country. And there's no marginalization or racial issues or whatever, at least nothing outside the norm. You can find countless ethnic minorities in various positions of power that aren't there just because of an invisible quota or whatever, but because all that matters is who can do the job best. For instance Sergei Shoigu [2] is a name you probably know, and he is ethnically Tuvan. The American far right who view Russia as something like a white Christian ethnostate are seen, by Russians, as complete idiots. One can disagree with another, even be involved in a violent war, without trying to turn them into the Devil incarnate. Such fatuous and exaggerated claims also ultimately make light of when there are real issues, such as in another war we're supporting, which is nothing like this one. [1] - https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/largest-ethnic-groups-in-russia.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/largest-ethnic-groups-in... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Shoigu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Shoigu

lispm 3y ago
Nonsense, the second world war history is excellently researched and Putin tells you only his propaganda views, which are just false. The Soviet Union collaborated with Germany on the invasion of Poland. In fact the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the East. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact This is not a "view", that's actual history.
- deleted 3y ago
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mopsi 3y ago
I see no reason to call any of what I quoted an exaggeration. These are very well documented episodes, which barely scratch the surface when it comes to German and Russian crimes committed in Eastern Europe. The described actions were merely opening shots of WWII. The worst was yet to come. As to ethnic minorities in Russia: > And there's no marginalization or racial issues or whatever, at least nothing outside the norm. Complete lie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#In_Russian_Federation_(1991%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#In_Russian_Feder...
- somenameforme 3y ago
  "On 19 June 2018, the Russian State Duma adopted a bill that made education in all languages but Russian optional, overruling previous laws by ethnic autonomies, and reducing instruction in minority languages to only two hours a week.[48][49][50] This bill has been likened by some commentators, such as in Foreign Affairs, to the policy of Russification.[48]" This is not really what I would call ethnic strife. I do agree that language is a big part of ethnic identity, but such a law obviously does not prevent people from using or learning their ethnic language, and people being unable to communicate in a common tongue is likely to lead to real ethnic strife within a region. To me, the ideal of a multi-ethnic nation would be one where people have a shared common identity first, yet also don't entirely relinquish their own unique distinctions. Like I think in America one of the reasons there's such an increasingly absurd division in society is that we've lost any sort of shared collective identity. Out of curiosity, would you actually even prefer the opposite of what is described in the page you linked to? If there happens to be an ethnic minority that is a majority in some region, should that region be able to determine that education, and so on, should be in the language of the local ethnic group?
  - mopsi 3y ago
    > such a law obviously does not prevent people from using or learning their ethnic language It is only one measure of many that is driving the rapid decline of indigenous peoples in Russia. Russia has a long history of methodical persecution of indigenous peoples with a wide arsenal that spans from closure of schools and suppression of media to made up charges about "extremism" and being a "foreign agent" to punitive psychiatry in the best Soviet traditions. Many languages and cultures have already become extinct like Native American tribes that were forced into conditions that caused a permanent loss of language, culture and identity. With official departure from the European Convention on Human Rights, the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, and other international treaties, Russia doesn't even bother to act like they care about human rights. The council that monitored how signatories enforced the framework convention used the same word in their reports about the situation of minorities as you did: marginalization, increasingly so. And it's gotten much worse since Putin decided to invade Ukraine in 2022. Russia is now decimating indigenous populations by disproportionally conscripting them to die in Ukraine. Buryats and Nenets are overrepresented by a factor of 50 in casualties compared to ethnic Russians from Moscow. Two genocides for the price of one - trying to overwhelm Ukrainian defenders by throwing indigenous peoples from Russia at them.

lispm 3y ago

Nonsense, the second world war history is excellently researched and Putin tells you only his propaganda views, which are just false. The Soviet Union collaborated with Germany on the invasion of Poland. In fact the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the East. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact This is not a "view", that's actual history.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

mopsi 3y ago

I see no reason to call any of what I quoted an exaggeration. These are very well documented episodes, which barely scratch the surface when it comes to German and Russian crimes committed in Eastern Europe. The described actions were merely opening shots of WWII. The worst was yet to come. As to ethnic minorities in Russia: > And there's no marginalization or racial issues or whatever, at least nothing outside the norm. Complete lie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#In_Russian_Federation_(1991%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#In_Russian_Feder...

somenameforme 3y ago
"On 19 June 2018, the Russian State Duma adopted a bill that made education in all languages but Russian optional, overruling previous laws by ethnic autonomies, and reducing instruction in minority languages to only two hours a week.[48][49][50] This bill has been likened by some commentators, such as in Foreign Affairs, to the policy of Russification.[48]" This is not really what I would call ethnic strife. I do agree that language is a big part of ethnic identity, but such a law obviously does not prevent people from using or learning their ethnic language, and people being unable to communicate in a common tongue is likely to lead to real ethnic strife within a region. To me, the ideal of a multi-ethnic nation would be one where people have a shared common identity first, yet also don't entirely relinquish their own unique distinctions. Like I think in America one of the reasons there's such an increasingly absurd division in society is that we've lost any sort of shared collective identity. Out of curiosity, would you actually even prefer the opposite of what is described in the page you linked to? If there happens to be an ethnic minority that is a majority in some region, should that region be able to determine that education, and so on, should be in the language of the local ethnic group?
- mopsi 3y ago
  > such a law obviously does not prevent people from using or learning their ethnic language It is only one measure of many that is driving the rapid decline of indigenous peoples in Russia. Russia has a long history of methodical persecution of indigenous peoples with a wide arsenal that spans from closure of schools and suppression of media to made up charges about "extremism" and being a "foreign agent" to punitive psychiatry in the best Soviet traditions. Many languages and cultures have already become extinct like Native American tribes that were forced into conditions that caused a permanent loss of language, culture and identity. With official departure from the European Convention on Human Rights, the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, and other international treaties, Russia doesn't even bother to act like they care about human rights. The council that monitored how signatories enforced the framework convention used the same word in their reports about the situation of minorities as you did: marginalization, increasingly so. And it's gotten much worse since Putin decided to invade Ukraine in 2022. Russia is now decimating indigenous populations by disproportionally conscripting them to die in Ukraine. Buryats and Nenets are overrepresented by a factor of 50 in casualties compared to ethnic Russians from Moscow. Two genocides for the price of one - trying to overwhelm Ukrainian defenders by throwing indigenous peoples from Russia at them.