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Review of Why Animals Talk: The New Science of Animal Communication

43 points by tintinnabula 3y ago

james_david 3y ago
Ed Yong's book An Immense World is an incredible exploration of one of the questions raised in this review, which is what animals talk about. He explains the incredible array of senses animals have and how those shape their worlds (Umwelten, in biology terms). If we want to understand how and why animals communicate, seeing the world from their point of view is essential, and Yong does a brilliant job of that. His book will pair well with this one.
deleted 3y ago
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mcswell 3y ago
From the review: "But is any of this really language? Kershenbaum shrewdly sidesteps the question." Of course he does, because it would ruin his thesis. He'd rather use the word "talk" because it's vague enough that he can use it without being called out, yet sounds meaningful enough to the common person that it sounds like he's saying something, while at the same time pulling in all kinds of feelings about how nice or smart some animals are. (And yes, I've had pet birds, fish, cats and dogs, and at least the cats and dogs, and maybe the bird, sort of communicate. And they were--one of the cats still is--nice.) Peter Wohlleben does the same thing in his book "The Hidden Life of Trees: What They Feel, How They Communicate", using the word "communicate". Trees exude certain chemicals when injured or infested, and you can sort of kinda maybe call that communication--but of course you can't call it language.
- genman 3y ago
  Our dog has surprisingly rich "vocabulary". That is, the modulation of sounds she can make is surprisingly high. She "talks" to us in the evenings and tries to convince us that she needs some extra food (her weight says otherwise). There definitely is an apparatus for quite evolved communication only if we could somehow agree on the communication protocol.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Wasn't there a study a few years ago that had identified a rudimentary language in bats. It was just 3-4 words/concepts like: 'i don't like you' 'don't want to sleep next to you' 'like you'.
- codybontecou 3y ago
  Yes, the research is coming out of this lab: https://www.yovelbatlab.com/publications https://www.yovelbatlab.com/publications
- dleeftink 3y ago
  > just 3-4 words Isn't that quite profound? I'd wager these concepts will get you a long way in any language.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  pedantry: many non-human animals communicate, in that they create signals with understood meanings; what appears to be special about language is that using it, one can string the same symbols together in different orders, and the understood meaning changes.
  - underlipton 3y ago
    That seems to be satisfied by the existence of "like/dislike" modifiers (and possibly directional/proximity modifiers, if the example given is accurate to the research).
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    Tomato / Potato We discovered animals using 'words'. NO, that isn't what we meant by language, because then humans wouldn't be special.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      Animal language comes from their genes, it is equivalent to laughter and crying and body language of humans. You can do a lot with just those, you can cry and point and you properly communicate that you are sad because of a thing etc. Human then have another level of language above that that we invented, there is no evidence of animals having anything like that. We can teach an animal to understand some words, but then that animal wont teach their kids to do it, it is a one time thing so they aren't anything like human language learning and culture.
pcw7321 3y ago
"What's it like to be a bat" posed the question; "the character of cats" (horses; or dogs) goes some way towards answering it. Does the reviewed work extend our knowledge? Do I really need to sign up to find out? Animal communication certainly is an interesting topic IMHO but yet another rehash of "animals see things differently" is, I suspect, just click bait. Tell me if it's a descent litt survey.

43 points by tintinnabula 3y ago

Ed Yong's book An Immense World is an incredible exploration of one of the questions raised in this review, which is what animals talk about. He explains the incredible array of senses animals have and how those shape their worlds (Umwelten, in biology terms). If we want to understand how and why animals communicate, seeing the world from their point of view is essential, and Yong does a brilliant job of that. His book will pair well with this one.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mcswell 3y ago

From the review: "But is any of this really language? Kershenbaum shrewdly sidesteps the question." Of course he does, because it would ruin his thesis. He'd rather use the word "talk" because it's vague enough that he can use it without being called out, yet sounds meaningful enough to the common person that it sounds like he's saying something, while at the same time pulling in all kinds of feelings about how nice or smart some animals are. (And yes, I've had pet birds, fish, cats and dogs, and at least the cats and dogs, and maybe the bird, sort of communicate. And they were--one of the cats still is--nice.) Peter Wohlleben does the same thing in his book "The Hidden Life of Trees: What They Feel, How They Communicate", using the word "communicate". Trees exude certain chemicals when injured or infested, and you can sort of kinda maybe call that communication--but of course you can't call it language.

genman 3y ago
Our dog has surprisingly rich "vocabulary". That is, the modulation of sounds she can make is surprisingly high. She "talks" to us in the evenings and tries to convince us that she needs some extra food (her weight says otherwise). There definitely is an apparatus for quite evolved communication only if we could somehow agree on the communication protocol.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

Wasn't there a study a few years ago that had identified a rudimentary language in bats. It was just 3-4 words/concepts like: 'i don't like you' 'don't want to sleep next to you' 'like you'.

codybontecou 3y ago
Yes, the research is coming out of this lab: https://www.yovelbatlab.com/publications https://www.yovelbatlab.com/publications
dleeftink 3y ago
> just 3-4 words Isn't that quite profound? I'd wager these concepts will get you a long way in any language.
082349872349872 3y ago
pedantry: many non-human animals communicate, in that they create signals with understood meanings; what appears to be special about language is that using it, one can string the same symbols together in different orders, and the understood meaning changes.
- underlipton 3y ago
  That seems to be satisfied by the existence of "like/dislike" modifiers (and possibly directional/proximity modifiers, if the example given is accurate to the research).
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Tomato / Potato We discovered animals using 'words'. NO, that isn't what we meant by language, because then humans wouldn't be special.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    Animal language comes from their genes, it is equivalent to laughter and crying and body language of humans. You can do a lot with just those, you can cry and point and you properly communicate that you are sad because of a thing etc. Human then have another level of language above that that we invented, there is no evidence of animals having anything like that. We can teach an animal to understand some words, but then that animal wont teach their kids to do it, it is a one time thing so they aren't anything like human language learning and culture.

pcw7321 3y ago

"What's it like to be a bat" posed the question; "the character of cats" (horses; or dogs) goes some way towards answering it. Does the reviewed work extend our knowledge? Do I really need to sign up to find out? Animal communication certainly is an interesting topic IMHO but yet another rehash of "animals see things differently" is, I suspect, just click bait. Tell me if it's a descent litt survey.