11 ms·

All my thoughts after 40 hours in the Vision Pro

135 points by dijksterhuis 3y ago

wanderingbit 3y ago
The youtube video of his VP experience is really oh-shit moment, I agree. The question I'm still left with is whether these "experiences" have lasting effects on enjoyment and balance with the technology. I'm not looking forward to another dopamine death spiral. Also, no matter who makes it, I think I will be forever fearful of powerful AR tech. After reading Electric State[1], you realize dystopia is only like 3 (big) steps away. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Electric_State_(graphic_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Electric_State_(graphic_no...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  > I'm not looking forward to another dopamine death spiral. Yeah, we're ruining human interactions and giving people depression, self doubt, etc, with all this technology that absorbs their lives, but think of all the money we're making for the shareholders. Line goes up. /s
  - jaredklewis 3y ago
    I dislike this simplistic line of thought because it seems to assume that people have no agency, no preferences, and must buy whatever is produced. It’s like blaming beer companies for liver disease. Beer is brewed and sold because people like beer. This has also made shareholders lots of money. So what?
    - Fuut 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - verve_rat 3y ago
      Cf. smoking and all the success that has been had from banning the advertising of tobacco products.
    - awongh 3y ago
      I think almost everyone except the most poisonous libertarians agree that there is some point at which thing tip into the realm of public health. Look at cigarette companies denying for so long that their product caused cancer (or at one point claiming it was good for pregnant women). Or the sale of assault rifles and their use in mass shootings. Or a less controversial one- that suicide rates were lowered when they changed the type of gas in people’s homes. I think as a society we can always collectively decide that regulating something might be for the public good. Sometimes we’re even correct about it.
- BLKNSLVR 3y ago
  Bought that a couple of weeks ago. Beautiful and worrisome.
  - screeno 3y ago
    You know what’s never helped me feel better about something? Consuming more media.
    - jhbadger 3y ago
      Reading a book (which I guess you call "consuming media" as if it were a sort of snack) has made me feel better on numerous occasions.
      - abirch 3y ago
        I consider Hacker News as consuming media. Occasionally there's some heartburn, but usually it's very nutrient dense.
    - elbrian 3y ago
      You’ve never found comfort in a show, movie, book or video game? That’s actually really sad.
      - JetSpiegel 3y ago
        There was a HN poster way back then claiming to have never read a novel in their lives. I totally believe an art-free existence is possible.
    - nickthegreek 3y ago
      C’Mon. Are you stating no song has moved you? That is straight up unbelievable.
    - BLKNSLVR 3y ago
      I actually find the opposite. New perspectives make me feel better about humanity. The 'worrisome' aspect of The Electric State (or any future dystopia) is it's parallel to a direction humanity could take. However, the fact that someone has taken the time to be aware of it and create a piece of art that's essentially a warning against it, means that, I think, we're better prepared against it becoming true. The author/artist is an ally.
- Nevermark 3y ago
  > The question I'm still left with is whether these "experiences" have lasting effects on enjoyment and balance with the technology. I'm not looking forward to another dopamine death spiral. For me the lasting value is simply a more flexible, ergonomic, and focused work environment than a MacBook (and add on) screens. The wow has faded quickly, but the convenience of seeing all my relevant info within my eye’s a head’s field of view would be hard to give up now. I love my iPhone, but for many things, want to use a laptop. I love my laptop, but now for deep work use the Vision (with the laptop). I really hope Apple has the sense to release Xcode & terminal for Vision, eliminating any need for a paired Mac. Or as a half step, allow for more than one Mac screen. Ergonomically, unlike iPhone or iPad, it is an environment naturally ergonomic for really focused work. (With keyboard & trackpad, and for me, the double strap.) At a desk, but actually better on a couch or recliner.
belval 3y ago
> I recently dusted it off to give friends a demo and they were floored, reminding me how great it is. It just didn’t hook me. Maybe it was the solo aspect. I don’t have friends who do VR so there’s no one else to play with. Convincing my friends to buy a Quest 2 was difficult, but now most gaming time is VR gaming time. The reality is that playing with friends, especially in VR is the #1 factor in making the experience enjoyable for me.
- Hikikomori 3y ago
  Which games are good for multiplayer?
  - nomel 3y ago
    I really enjoy Walkabout mini golf.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Blaston
  - homefree 3y ago
    Eleven table tennis is good
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    The forest
    - Hikikomori 3y ago
      No thank you.
      - wkat4242 3y ago
        It's a game too. Survival. It's pretty nice playing in VR with friends. Only pcvr though, there's no native quest version. Or do you mean you don't like it?
outside415 3y ago
I’m 20 hours in and its use for me is greatly accelerating. Wish it was easier to type.
- dannyobrien 3y ago
  I'm using it about as much as I am accustomed to use my laptop around the house (it eats into my phone/laptop usage, rather than anything else). Zoom and desktop mirroring is too buggy rn, otherwise I think it would eat more into my desktop. I use a nice mechanical bluetooth keyboard with a trackpoint. It's just niggling bugs though -- the 1.2 beta is already an improvement. The counter-argument is that I also tried to yolo into using the ipad as a primary machine when that came out and quickly came crawling back to my desktop after the initial excitement. This feels about halfway between desktop and ipad in terms of my use of it for non-consumer digital uses.
  - outside415 3y ago
    yeah I am happy to have all of my phone time cannibalized by it, much easier on the eyes and arms, more fun too. Looking at photos and videos on it is far more enthralling than on my phone. connecting it to my macbook and working on docs is just so much better than my current airbnb setup for productivity as well, the screen is crystal clear and I am on top of Haleakala, so easy to focus rapidly, and half a dozen other screens that I reference all a quick gaze away instead of a context switch away. wish I liked movies more, the disney 3d stuff on it is really stunning, similarly the immersive apple tv stuff is pretty neat too. wish there were more apps taking advantage of the 3d plane vs. just popping up another 2d plan in 3d space. 100% agree with the bugs, not entirely unexpected though so not too annoyed by them.
- redeux 3y ago
  What makes typing so difficult? Is it just the virtual keyboard?
  - outside415 3y ago
    yeah virtual keyboard, you can either touch the keys directly or do an eye gaze finger tip close motion. it's fine for small things like URLs and Search terms, but once I start typing in a password or a sentence I become very unhappy. Still worth the pain though, I am sure the typing will get better with time. For now productivity tasks are mostly reserved for when I am VM'd from it to my mac.
idlewords 3y ago
"I went home, told my wife that I would be deeply ignoring her and our baby for the week, and spent twelve hours a day in the headset for four straight days." Father of the year right here.
- bla3 3y ago
  Is there another way?
  - Astraco 3y ago
    Yes, a lot of them.
  - Fnoord 3y ago
    Of course there is. As a parent (no matter your gender) you have the legal responsibility to take care of your children until adult age. On the double for young children, such as a baby. This is priority #1 in your life. I was just ill half of January (some seasonal cold/flu/whatever) and even then this is priority over resting. A baby needs attention, food, drink, clean diapers, sleep, hugs/massage (vs tummy cramps), safety (parent available). Furthermore, you and your significant other are a team of caregivers. You need to act like a team player ie. communicate and propose. Yes, you can have leisure time (tho not much with a newborn in my experience, it already gets better with a baby) but it is about giving and taking, balance between family, work, and fun. For example, he could use the device one hour a day. It would've just been a longer project, or less extensive. Anyway, I just brush it off as tough boy talk. He did communicate and work it out with his significant other and she agreed. Not in the sense he said I am unavailable for a week good luck with your life see you in a week.
    - wernercd 3y ago
      "priority #1" and as part of his priority? making money to pay the bills. While wife takes care of the kid. People around the world and throughout history sacrifice for their kids... we should all be so lucky. He's able to sacrifice from the comfort of home... some sacrifice in coal mines or on oil rigs or on long commutes to long days in factories. Complaining that dad has to work to provide is a first world problem.
staplers 3y ago
The video in this blog post is titled "My work day in a vision pro" but I didn't see a single productive moment. This version of AR is not for me I suppose.
- dijksterhuis 3y ago
  Tim is well known for procrastinating. It’s basically his day job. https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-procrastinate.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-procrasti...
- stevage 3y ago
  The whole video is literally him producing a video for the blog post, so it was 100% productive.
  - staplers 3y ago
    Touché
LaSombra 3y ago
That Gruber quote is hard to digest
sergiotapia 3y ago
How is the vision pro for reading/writing code? I still can't find one persons opinion on this specific feature. Yes you can "write a blog". But can you read and write _code_?
- jonsully 3y ago
  Have one. Will be returning. Specifically for code (via the Mac Airplay) it's.. okay. The reality is that the resolution / clarity just isn't high enough to rival the sharpness and clarity of a real monitor. So you end up with a bigger screen to try to see things as sharply, or an overall "bigger" ui experience — either way leading to less real-estate per degree-of-view to work with. So.. it's fine. But it's not better than a monitor.
  - sergiotapia 3y ago
    >The reality is that the resolution / clarity just isn't high enough to rival the sharpness and clarity of a real monitor. Thank you! Finally a direct answer from someone in the trenches. Shame, I have high hopes for the Pico 5! :)
    - jsheard 3y ago
      I wouldn't hold your breath, Pico reportedly shed half of its staff last year and cancelled various projects. They may be cutting their losses with VR still struggling to get a real foothold, not to mention the regulatory roadblocks to them selling their hardware in the US.
      - wkat4242 3y ago
        Aren't they already available in the US? Theyve been selling here in Europe for ages. But yeah I heard of the budget cuts too. May not happen now
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      The Pico 5 Max pro has only slightly more pixels than the AVP and about the same girls of view so it'll just be on par with the AVP (but much cheaper). Ps: based on rumours and it may not happen due to the budget cuts at pico now
gyrovagueGeist 3y ago
> I had recently read The Phantom Tollbooth, where a kid in the real world crosses a magic threshold and enters a cartoon world. This felt like that. I wanted more. This feels like a weird lead in to me. It invites comparisons to the story, ..but The Phantom Tollbooth is all about finding wonder in everything you had to begin with.
- DANmode 3y ago
  We've had the ability to do HD goggle displays, and convergent (plug in, dockable) devices, for like...a decade plus. I'd say it's valid.
bilsbie 3y ago
I had that exact experience with the quest. I still feel weird about it. Unbelievable technology and experience but I can’t be bothered to use it anymore. Just something about it is missing for real immersion.
- kromem 3y ago
  After a lot of experience with VR/AR, for me it's come down to: - Comfort - Quality I've yet to use a headset I'd wear for 8 hours a day without leading a rebellion against my torturers forcing me to after a few weeks. I've also yet to use a headset that is at a quality such that it has a similar visual and presence fidelity to the real world (though this is getting closer). When it's comfortable enough to wear for hours and hours on end and it looks sharp enough I don't care I'm wearing a headset, I'll spend a lot of time there. We're probably 2 more hardware generations away.
  - ekianjo 3y ago
    > We're probably 2 more hardware generations away. people have been saying that for the past 2 generations already
    - kromem 3y ago
      ... we've only realistically had two generations. I'd thought it would move faster when there was hope it could piggyback on mobile phone subsidies from carriers, but once that was clear it wasn't going to be the case it was quite evident we were talking about ~7 year legitimate hardware cycles.
  - Fuut 3y ago
    If I think about VR, I didn't thought 'i want to stare at a display ' I thought 'i can move around in a world without limits which includes motion, touch, perhaps sex, etc. What we now have is just gimmicky. I have a nice reality, there is no relevant upscale at all to use a virtual sub quality experience every day. And for 3.5k you get plenty of wall color and tools and nice things to make your environment nicer And yes I do have a projector at home for 10 years. It's easy and was cheap (700$ 10 years ago 720p)
xwowsersx 3y ago
Can anyone share their experience programming for extended periods using the Vision Pro headset? Based on a few YouTube clips, it seems we're not quite there yet, but perhaps in a few iterations. I crave ample screen space and the clarity of my Studio Display, but buying multiple displays isn't practical. Ideally, I'd like unlimited virtual screens or a resizable screen, freeing me from the limitations of physical monitors. Is this close to achieving that? Would love to hear from programmers who have used the headset extensively.
- qdot76367 3y ago
  I've done some programming on the AVP. It... feels weird, 'cause you're basically just working on a big screen while still in the mouse/keyboard monitor paradigm. Just so happens your monitor is a little easier to move around and adjust, but that's not really something I feel like I've needed. AFAIK (and would love input if people know more about this), there hasn't been much concentration on programming in these kind of 3d immersive environments, outside of languages like ProtoFlux in the Resonite virtual world (which is an update of Logix from Neos). Even that is really just a dataflow language where your spaghetti can work on 3 axes instead of 2. It feels like we need some considerations of how these immersive environments could benefit an IDE. Possibly some input from what projects like Dynamicland have learned?
  - euroderf 3y ago
    If there is unlimited visual real estate for placement of an unlimited number of windows, then how 'bout throwing up ALL the source code for your app.. and then rendering fine threads from function callers to function callees ? That would give you many strings to pluck at.
    - layer8 3y ago
      This still leaves the issue of navigation unsolved. Since the structure of code has no particular connection to 2D or 3D layout, it’s unclear how laying it out that way would help. If you ever looked at the call graph or the class diagram of any nontrivial application, it should be clear that it isn’t very practical.
joshstrange 3y ago
I agree with pretty much everything he said except I still don’t see how people enjoy the Mac Virtual Display. It’s just too fuzzy. He is a writer though and maybe if the text is larger and the only thing on MVD you can write without issue? Code was too rough on mine. Tomorrow I plan to try it on my couch with just my laptop to compare the experience. Sitting at my desk I just wanted to take off the AVP and use the monitors that were sitting right there. But even if the couch experiment goes well, I prefer to work at my desk and the AVP can’t come close to that level of productively for me so I’ll probably return it.
- jebarker 3y ago
  I haven't tried AVP. I was under the impression that Mac Virtual Display could be at 4K - why is the text fuzzy if that's the case?
  - joshstrange 3y ago
    It’s something to do with how your screen is AirPlay’d to the AVP. I too thought it would be 4K but I think all that was said is something like “4K per eye” but that doesn’t mean 4K for monitors. Text in AVP apps is crisp but Mac Virtual Display is not. I put an image at the top of this post https://joshstrange.com/2024/02/10/the-use-case-for-mac-virtual-display/ https://joshstrange.com/2024/02/10/the-use-case-for-mac-virt... and the previous post has some video looking at code to give you an example.
    - jonwest 3y ago
      I havent used the AVP but I remember feeling the excitement of being able to watch a movie in a theatre all to myself with the Oculus Rift all fade away in the first half an hour with the loss in clarity. I have zero doubts that the comparison is night and day between the CV1 Rift and the AVP, but when I think about how much I'm bothered by blurry text when I'm working, I can't help but be a bit bearish on pulling the trigger on getting one. I'm sure I will get there, but maybe not on the first generation.
  - layer8 3y ago
iJohnDoe 3y ago
Question - Can AVP be used to watch movies and surf the web with no computer required? I don’t foresee wanting an AVP for productivity. I see it as an entertainment device, and a bonus would be immersion within that entertainment. Writing (with a keyboard) while watching a movie or listening to music would be cool too.
- ozten 3y ago
  Yes. You can think of it as a very powerful iPad pro. One that can have multiple apps running up to a surprising limit.
- adamesque 3y ago
  The entire device is “no computer required”, just like an iPad for your face
Davidzheng 3y ago
Just a question for the folks with vision pro, how feasible is swipe typing with eye tracking? I think I have a pretty good time typing with swype keyboard on iphone with all its autocorrecting and stuff. Obviously not for everyone, but from what I see the typing without physical keyboard is really bad on vision pro (maybe a bit exaggeration) but is swipe typing an option right now?
homefree 3y ago
I watched a for all mankind episode in it today in the cinema environment and that was really good. I’ve similarly watched other videos and it’s good at that, the four immersive video examples are cool. Window nav is meh, the eye tracking isn’t quite good enough. The windows aren’t small enough to be super useful when trying to do real work on the Mac, for productivity work it’s disappointing in this first version. I can see how with future hardware you could actually wear all the time, leaving windows in certain locations around your house could be useful, especially if some were shared. The potential is clear, but it’s still an early adopter device. For media (particularly video) consumption it’s great. I think my prediction from 2021 held up well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27583456 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27583456
none_to_remain 3y ago
Outside the context of working together on some specific AR-enabled task, I would find it very rude for someone to attempt to converse with me while wearing this. I'm also uninterested (again, outside of specific tasks) in viewing my surroundings through camera and screen. I guess I'm still waiting for the contact lens HUD
ekianjo 3y ago
the author is very optimistic about having exponential hardware progress. he is seriously dreaming we are already reaching the limits of the lithography process...
adrian_b 3y ago
> "Eventually, there may be dozens of ways to make gestures with our fingers, each one a different command, like today’s keyboard shortcuts." I do not believe that this is a desirable evolution. The speed and accuracy of moving the fingers are significantly less than for moving the hand. A much better user interface can be achieved by holding a stylus in the hand and using the stylus for pointing or gestures. I have also considered this paragraph as extremely sad: > "In the presentation, when Jobs did the world’s first “swipe to unlock,” the audience made an audible gasp. A minute later, he brought up a list of artists in the phone’s “iPod” app and asked, “Well, how do I scroll through my list of artists? I just take my finger and scroll.” Another audible gasp. It’s weird that something so normal today was jaw-dropping 17 years ago. " The astonished reactions of the audience just demonstrates the sad fact that the majority of the computer users have always been brainwashed by the inferior Apple and Microsoft graphic user interfaces and they have never experienced a really well designed GUI. At that time I have been only mildly impressed by the fact that such a user interface has been finally implemented in a smartphone, because a GUI with finger gestures on a touchpad was just a much slower and much less accurate variant of the GUIs based on mouse gestures, like I had been using for many years in CAD/EDA programs for drawing, like those from Mentor Graphics. Unfortunately, such superior user interfaces have always been restricted to niche applications, while the mainstream operating systems have evolved to use worse pointing devices, like mice with scroll wheels or touch pads and touch screens (touch screens are justified only at smartphone sizes, when carrying any other pointing device may be inconvenient).
- tpmoney 3y ago
  I feel like you're missing two very important things: 1) A touch interface is a VASTLY different experience from a mouse / trackball gestures interface. There's a physicality there that simply isn't present when you're gesturing with a different device entirely and seeing the effects of that gesture on a disconnected screen. Touch to tap, and tap and hold have been gestures on track pads since the mid 90's. So using a touch pay with tap and hold to drag a folder around should be (by your reasoning) exactly the same as doing the same with a touch screen. And yet, controlling an iPad with a separate touch pad is a very different experience from controlling it directly from the screen. 2) Just how BAD previous touch screen devices were as far as control. Capacitive touch was a game changer here. I worked for Apple retail during the initial iPhone launch, and one of the things I had to teach ex-palm / handspring customers over and over again was to unlearn their habits formed by working around the limitations of resistive touch screens. Stop trying to tap with the tip of your finger nail, stop trying to tap just below/above/to the side of your target, put your finger down right over the key you want to press and trust the OS, etc. Of course this was jaw dropping, everything else to that point was usable, but finicky in ways that we would find incredibly annoying today.
ajonit 3y ago
Great review. I wonder how will these headsets affect eyesight?
superultra 3y ago
Nearly every post that sings the Vision’s praises mentions a kind of unwavering belief in a Moore’s Law of technological progress, which is very magical thinking that is not truly based on data but merely recency bias. The reality is that the challenges facing a better vision pro are much, much more difficult than the ones for early personal computing and smartphones. Some of these obstacles are outright technical. The Vision Pro is clearly best in class but the next iteration is going to take some significant technological leaps forward, some of which (screen latency) are physically insurmountable. The obstacles are cultural. When an iPhone showed up, there wasn’t much zeitgeist against using a computer or a blackberry too much. But there’s since been a lot of conversation about the nature of these tiny sceeens we keep drawing closer and closer to our eyes. I can see the Vision Pro becoming a tool for professionals, in the same space a dual monitor setup occupies. But AR/VR is such a viscerally compelling experience that think there may be an extensive backlash on all personal devices as a result, particularly as usage relates to young people. There’s just a lot of tough challenges ahead of adopting and I think hand waving these away due to “progress” is a little naive.
- aaron695 3y ago
  [dead]
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  Being fashionable makes a huge difference. If the Vision can be reduced in size to something like a normal pair of sunglasses, I could see wearing one becoming popular. This level of miniaturization is obviously not happening tomorrow, but is it impossible in 10-15 years?
  - layer8 3y ago
    It requires technical leaps of the kind that make predictions arbitrary. It could be 15 years, or 50.
    - matthewdgreen 3y ago
      I would be happy to bet on 15 vs. 50. Any reasonable way to make that happen?
blamestross 3y ago
https://149909199.v2.pressablecdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/S-Curves-2.png https://149909199.v2.pressablecdn.com/wp-content/uploads/202... This is the most ironic image I've seen in a while. "Even though I know all growth curves are sigmoid, I'm going to pretend the long term curve is exponential not also sigmoid"
akasakahakada 3y ago
> When you press the button at the top of the headset, your apps come up Give me SAO's 2 fingers gesture and I would consider it.
w4 3y ago
Great review. I agree with a lot of it; the one glaring exception is comfort. No matter which band I’m using, the Vision Pro is brutally uncomfortable after 10-15 minutes. This is not the case with other headsets, e.g. the Quest 3 with the elite strap. I can wear those for extended periods of time without discomfort. It’s amazing tech in a terrible (for me) form factor right now. Based on the varied reactions to comfort, my experience is clearly not universal, and I can’t imagine comfort getting worse. I hope that Apple improves comfort options for a broader audience in v2.
- kevinmalone 3y ago
  Have you tried a different facial interface? With width could especially cause trouble. I was also struggling with discomfort and took some time to dial the dual band in, and also changed my light seal to the one that was in the box, and comfort is now a non issue. Have worn it for 3-4 hour blocks of time and only taken it off because human needs (food, rest, etc).
  - w4 3y ago
    I have. The other interface is better, but unfortunately still uncomfortable. The weight distribution is also an issue for me; the entire unit is a literal pain on the neck. Another issue that I haven’t seen commented on is that the fixed arms on the headset make getting a comfortable fit tricky. Other headsets’ arms pivot a few degrees so that you can better align the headset with your face. It’s a surprising result, because comfort is basically solved with other headsets. For example, I can wear the Quest 3 with the elite strap as long as I’d like, and the original PSVR was remarkably comfortable. I suspect the issue is that Apple wanted a ski goggle form factor rather than a rigid halo to make the device seem more futuristic and approachable, and the tech just isn’t there yet for the headset to be light enough for that form factor to work.
deafpolygon 3y ago
Honestly, I'm looking forward to this. When I'm old and I can't go anywhere [I'm almost 45], I'm still going to be able to go places and see things that current 70 year old people can't do due to health reasons. And it's going to be thanks to tech like this. It's a really great time to be alive.
penjelly 3y ago
> At least right now, it seems only a little more uncomfortable than wearing over-ear headphones for long periods of time. This might not apply to everyone, but I have not felt nauseous once while wearing it. i find this pretty hard to believe. AVP is 2.5x heavier than my over-ears, those dont front load my neck and my neck still feels it at the end of the day if i wear them too long.
vik0 3y ago
God, I hope this technology never catches on. It's scary to even think how the world (or, at least, the industrialized world) will be changed to become (even more) socially inept, and as a side effect, people becoming more and more depressed and anxious when they leave their little toy to go and interact with the real world (assuming people will ever leave their little headset.) Eyesight will also get much worse. I won't be surprised, if this catches on, that all babies born at a certain point in the future will have to wear glasses. We will become so fragile, not just at the societal level, but even at the individual level. Terrifying.

135 points by dijksterhuis 3y ago

The youtube video of his VP experience is really oh-shit moment, I agree. The question I'm still left with is whether these "experiences" have lasting effects on enjoyment and balance with the technology. I'm not looking forward to another dopamine death spiral. Also, no matter who makes it, I think I will be forever fearful of powerful AR tech. After reading Electric State[1], you realize dystopia is only like 3 (big) steps away. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Electric_State_(graphic_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Electric_State_(graphic_no...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
> I'm not looking forward to another dopamine death spiral. Yeah, we're ruining human interactions and giving people depression, self doubt, etc, with all this technology that absorbs their lives, but think of all the money we're making for the shareholders. Line goes up. /s
- jaredklewis 3y ago
  I dislike this simplistic line of thought because it seems to assume that people have no agency, no preferences, and must buy whatever is produced. It’s like blaming beer companies for liver disease. Beer is brewed and sold because people like beer. This has also made shareholders lots of money. So what?
  - Fuut 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - verve_rat 3y ago
    Cf. smoking and all the success that has been had from banning the advertising of tobacco products.
  - awongh 3y ago
    I think almost everyone except the most poisonous libertarians agree that there is some point at which thing tip into the realm of public health. Look at cigarette companies denying for so long that their product caused cancer (or at one point claiming it was good for pregnant women). Or the sale of assault rifles and their use in mass shootings. Or a less controversial one- that suicide rates were lowered when they changed the type of gas in people’s homes. I think as a society we can always collectively decide that regulating something might be for the public good. Sometimes we’re even correct about it.
BLKNSLVR 3y ago
Bought that a couple of weeks ago. Beautiful and worrisome.
- screeno 3y ago
  You know what’s never helped me feel better about something? Consuming more media.
  - jhbadger 3y ago
    Reading a book (which I guess you call "consuming media" as if it were a sort of snack) has made me feel better on numerous occasions.
    - abirch 3y ago
      I consider Hacker News as consuming media. Occasionally there's some heartburn, but usually it's very nutrient dense.
  - elbrian 3y ago
    You’ve never found comfort in a show, movie, book or video game? That’s actually really sad.
    - JetSpiegel 3y ago
      There was a HN poster way back then claiming to have never read a novel in their lives. I totally believe an art-free existence is possible.
  - nickthegreek 3y ago
    C’Mon. Are you stating no song has moved you? That is straight up unbelievable.
  - BLKNSLVR 3y ago
    I actually find the opposite. New perspectives make me feel better about humanity. The 'worrisome' aspect of The Electric State (or any future dystopia) is it's parallel to a direction humanity could take. However, the fact that someone has taken the time to be aware of it and create a piece of art that's essentially a warning against it, means that, I think, we're better prepared against it becoming true. The author/artist is an ally.
Nevermark 3y ago
> The question I'm still left with is whether these "experiences" have lasting effects on enjoyment and balance with the technology. I'm not looking forward to another dopamine death spiral. For me the lasting value is simply a more flexible, ergonomic, and focused work environment than a MacBook (and add on) screens. The wow has faded quickly, but the convenience of seeing all my relevant info within my eye’s a head’s field of view would be hard to give up now. I love my iPhone, but for many things, want to use a laptop. I love my laptop, but now for deep work use the Vision (with the laptop). I really hope Apple has the sense to release Xcode & terminal for Vision, eliminating any need for a paired Mac. Or as a half step, allow for more than one Mac screen. Ergonomically, unlike iPhone or iPad, it is an environment naturally ergonomic for really focused work. (With keyboard & trackpad, and for me, the double strap.) At a desk, but actually better on a couch or recliner.

belval 3y ago

> I recently dusted it off to give friends a demo and they were floored, reminding me how great it is. It just didn’t hook me. Maybe it was the solo aspect. I don’t have friends who do VR so there’s no one else to play with. Convincing my friends to buy a Quest 2 was difficult, but now most gaming time is VR gaming time. The reality is that playing with friends, especially in VR is the #1 factor in making the experience enjoyable for me.

Hikikomori 3y ago
Which games are good for multiplayer?
- nomel 3y ago
  I really enjoy Walkabout mini golf.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Blaston
- homefree 3y ago
  Eleven table tennis is good
- wkat4242 3y ago
  The forest
  - Hikikomori 3y ago
    No thank you.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      It's a game too. Survival. It's pretty nice playing in VR with friends. Only pcvr though, there's no native quest version. Or do you mean you don't like it?

outside415 3y ago

I’m 20 hours in and its use for me is greatly accelerating. Wish it was easier to type.

dannyobrien 3y ago
I'm using it about as much as I am accustomed to use my laptop around the house (it eats into my phone/laptop usage, rather than anything else). Zoom and desktop mirroring is too buggy rn, otherwise I think it would eat more into my desktop. I use a nice mechanical bluetooth keyboard with a trackpoint. It's just niggling bugs though -- the 1.2 beta is already an improvement. The counter-argument is that I also tried to yolo into using the ipad as a primary machine when that came out and quickly came crawling back to my desktop after the initial excitement. This feels about halfway between desktop and ipad in terms of my use of it for non-consumer digital uses.
- outside415 3y ago
  yeah I am happy to have all of my phone time cannibalized by it, much easier on the eyes and arms, more fun too. Looking at photos and videos on it is far more enthralling than on my phone. connecting it to my macbook and working on docs is just so much better than my current airbnb setup for productivity as well, the screen is crystal clear and I am on top of Haleakala, so easy to focus rapidly, and half a dozen other screens that I reference all a quick gaze away instead of a context switch away. wish I liked movies more, the disney 3d stuff on it is really stunning, similarly the immersive apple tv stuff is pretty neat too. wish there were more apps taking advantage of the 3d plane vs. just popping up another 2d plan in 3d space. 100% agree with the bugs, not entirely unexpected though so not too annoyed by them.
redeux 3y ago
What makes typing so difficult? Is it just the virtual keyboard?
- outside415 3y ago
  yeah virtual keyboard, you can either touch the keys directly or do an eye gaze finger tip close motion. it's fine for small things like URLs and Search terms, but once I start typing in a password or a sentence I become very unhappy. Still worth the pain though, I am sure the typing will get better with time. For now productivity tasks are mostly reserved for when I am VM'd from it to my mac.

idlewords 3y ago

"I went home, told my wife that I would be deeply ignoring her and our baby for the week, and spent twelve hours a day in the headset for four straight days." Father of the year right here.

bla3 3y ago
Is there another way?
- Astraco 3y ago
  Yes, a lot of them.
- Fnoord 3y ago
  Of course there is. As a parent (no matter your gender) you have the legal responsibility to take care of your children until adult age. On the double for young children, such as a baby. This is priority #1 in your life. I was just ill half of January (some seasonal cold/flu/whatever) and even then this is priority over resting. A baby needs attention, food, drink, clean diapers, sleep, hugs/massage (vs tummy cramps), safety (parent available). Furthermore, you and your significant other are a team of caregivers. You need to act like a team player ie. communicate and propose. Yes, you can have leisure time (tho not much with a newborn in my experience, it already gets better with a baby) but it is about giving and taking, balance between family, work, and fun. For example, he could use the device one hour a day. It would've just been a longer project, or less extensive. Anyway, I just brush it off as tough boy talk. He did communicate and work it out with his significant other and she agreed. Not in the sense he said I am unavailable for a week good luck with your life see you in a week.
  - wernercd 3y ago
    "priority #1" and as part of his priority? making money to pay the bills. While wife takes care of the kid. People around the world and throughout history sacrifice for their kids... we should all be so lucky. He's able to sacrifice from the comfort of home... some sacrifice in coal mines or on oil rigs or on long commutes to long days in factories. Complaining that dad has to work to provide is a first world problem.

staplers 3y ago

The video in this blog post is titled "My work day in a vision pro" but I didn't see a single productive moment. This version of AR is not for me I suppose.

dijksterhuis 3y ago
Tim is well known for procrastinating. It’s basically his day job. https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-procrastinate.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-procrasti...
stevage 3y ago
The whole video is literally him producing a video for the blog post, so it was 100% productive.
- staplers 3y ago
  Touché

LaSombra 3y ago

That Gruber quote is hard to digest

sergiotapia 3y ago

How is the vision pro for reading/writing code? I still can't find one persons opinion on this specific feature. Yes you can "write a blog". But can you read and write _code_?

jonsully 3y ago
Have one. Will be returning. Specifically for code (via the Mac Airplay) it's.. okay. The reality is that the resolution / clarity just isn't high enough to rival the sharpness and clarity of a real monitor. So you end up with a bigger screen to try to see things as sharply, or an overall "bigger" ui experience — either way leading to less real-estate per degree-of-view to work with. So.. it's fine. But it's not better than a monitor.
- sergiotapia 3y ago
  >The reality is that the resolution / clarity just isn't high enough to rival the sharpness and clarity of a real monitor. Thank you! Finally a direct answer from someone in the trenches. Shame, I have high hopes for the Pico 5! :)
  - jsheard 3y ago
    I wouldn't hold your breath, Pico reportedly shed half of its staff last year and cancelled various projects. They may be cutting their losses with VR still struggling to get a real foothold, not to mention the regulatory roadblocks to them selling their hardware in the US.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      Aren't they already available in the US? Theyve been selling here in Europe for ages. But yeah I heard of the budget cuts too. May not happen now
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    The Pico 5 Max pro has only slightly more pixels than the AVP and about the same girls of view so it'll just be on par with the AVP (but much cheaper). Ps: based on rumours and it may not happen due to the budget cuts at pico now

gyrovagueGeist 3y ago

> I had recently read The Phantom Tollbooth, where a kid in the real world crosses a magic threshold and enters a cartoon world. This felt like that. I wanted more. This feels like a weird lead in to me. It invites comparisons to the story, ..but The Phantom Tollbooth is all about finding wonder in everything you had to begin with.

DANmode 3y ago
We've had the ability to do HD goggle displays, and convergent (plug in, dockable) devices, for like...a decade plus. I'd say it's valid.

bilsbie 3y ago

I had that exact experience with the quest. I still feel weird about it. Unbelievable technology and experience but I can’t be bothered to use it anymore. Just something about it is missing for real immersion.

kromem 3y ago
After a lot of experience with VR/AR, for me it's come down to: - Comfort - Quality I've yet to use a headset I'd wear for 8 hours a day without leading a rebellion against my torturers forcing me to after a few weeks. I've also yet to use a headset that is at a quality such that it has a similar visual and presence fidelity to the real world (though this is getting closer). When it's comfortable enough to wear for hours and hours on end and it looks sharp enough I don't care I'm wearing a headset, I'll spend a lot of time there. We're probably 2 more hardware generations away.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  > We're probably 2 more hardware generations away. people have been saying that for the past 2 generations already
  - kromem 3y ago
    ... we've only realistically had two generations. I'd thought it would move faster when there was hope it could piggyback on mobile phone subsidies from carriers, but once that was clear it wasn't going to be the case it was quite evident we were talking about ~7 year legitimate hardware cycles.
- Fuut 3y ago
  If I think about VR, I didn't thought 'i want to stare at a display ' I thought 'i can move around in a world without limits which includes motion, touch, perhaps sex, etc. What we now have is just gimmicky. I have a nice reality, there is no relevant upscale at all to use a virtual sub quality experience every day. And for 3.5k you get plenty of wall color and tools and nice things to make your environment nicer And yes I do have a projector at home for 10 years. It's easy and was cheap (700$ 10 years ago 720p)

xwowsersx 3y ago

Can anyone share their experience programming for extended periods using the Vision Pro headset? Based on a few YouTube clips, it seems we're not quite there yet, but perhaps in a few iterations. I crave ample screen space and the clarity of my Studio Display, but buying multiple displays isn't practical. Ideally, I'd like unlimited virtual screens or a resizable screen, freeing me from the limitations of physical monitors. Is this close to achieving that? Would love to hear from programmers who have used the headset extensively.

qdot76367 3y ago
I've done some programming on the AVP. It... feels weird, 'cause you're basically just working on a big screen while still in the mouse/keyboard monitor paradigm. Just so happens your monitor is a little easier to move around and adjust, but that's not really something I feel like I've needed. AFAIK (and would love input if people know more about this), there hasn't been much concentration on programming in these kind of 3d immersive environments, outside of languages like ProtoFlux in the Resonite virtual world (which is an update of Logix from Neos). Even that is really just a dataflow language where your spaghetti can work on 3 axes instead of 2. It feels like we need some considerations of how these immersive environments could benefit an IDE. Possibly some input from what projects like Dynamicland have learned?
- euroderf 3y ago
  If there is unlimited visual real estate for placement of an unlimited number of windows, then how 'bout throwing up ALL the source code for your app.. and then rendering fine threads from function callers to function callees ? That would give you many strings to pluck at.
  - layer8 3y ago
    This still leaves the issue of navigation unsolved. Since the structure of code has no particular connection to 2D or 3D layout, it’s unclear how laying it out that way would help. If you ever looked at the call graph or the class diagram of any nontrivial application, it should be clear that it isn’t very practical.

joshstrange 3y ago

I agree with pretty much everything he said except I still don’t see how people enjoy the Mac Virtual Display. It’s just too fuzzy. He is a writer though and maybe if the text is larger and the only thing on MVD you can write without issue? Code was too rough on mine. Tomorrow I plan to try it on my couch with just my laptop to compare the experience. Sitting at my desk I just wanted to take off the AVP and use the monitors that were sitting right there. But even if the couch experiment goes well, I prefer to work at my desk and the AVP can’t come close to that level of productively for me so I’ll probably return it.

jebarker 3y ago
I haven't tried AVP. I was under the impression that Mac Virtual Display could be at 4K - why is the text fuzzy if that's the case?
- joshstrange 3y ago
  It’s something to do with how your screen is AirPlay’d to the AVP. I too thought it would be 4K but I think all that was said is something like “4K per eye” but that doesn’t mean 4K for monitors. Text in AVP apps is crisp but Mac Virtual Display is not. I put an image at the top of this post https://joshstrange.com/2024/02/10/the-use-case-for-mac-virtual-display/ https://joshstrange.com/2024/02/10/the-use-case-for-mac-virt... and the previous post has some video looking at code to give you an example.
  - jonwest 3y ago
    I havent used the AVP but I remember feeling the excitement of being able to watch a movie in a theatre all to myself with the Oculus Rift all fade away in the first half an hour with the loss in clarity. I have zero doubts that the comparison is night and day between the CV1 Rift and the AVP, but when I think about how much I'm bothered by blurry text when I'm working, I can't help but be a bit bearish on pulling the trigger on getting one. I'm sure I will get there, but maybe not on the first generation.
- layer8 3y ago

iJohnDoe 3y ago

Question - Can AVP be used to watch movies and surf the web with no computer required? I don’t foresee wanting an AVP for productivity. I see it as an entertainment device, and a bonus would be immersion within that entertainment. Writing (with a keyboard) while watching a movie or listening to music would be cool too.

ozten 3y ago
Yes. You can think of it as a very powerful iPad pro. One that can have multiple apps running up to a surprising limit.
adamesque 3y ago
The entire device is “no computer required”, just like an iPad for your face

Davidzheng 3y ago

Just a question for the folks with vision pro, how feasible is swipe typing with eye tracking? I think I have a pretty good time typing with swype keyboard on iphone with all its autocorrecting and stuff. Obviously not for everyone, but from what I see the typing without physical keyboard is really bad on vision pro (maybe a bit exaggeration) but is swipe typing an option right now?

homefree 3y ago

I watched a for all mankind episode in it today in the cinema environment and that was really good. I’ve similarly watched other videos and it’s good at that, the four immersive video examples are cool. Window nav is meh, the eye tracking isn’t quite good enough. The windows aren’t small enough to be super useful when trying to do real work on the Mac, for productivity work it’s disappointing in this first version. I can see how with future hardware you could actually wear all the time, leaving windows in certain locations around your house could be useful, especially if some were shared. The potential is clear, but it’s still an early adopter device. For media (particularly video) consumption it’s great. I think my prediction from 2021 held up well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27583456 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27583456

none_to_remain 3y ago

Outside the context of working together on some specific AR-enabled task, I would find it very rude for someone to attempt to converse with me while wearing this. I'm also uninterested (again, outside of specific tasks) in viewing my surroundings through camera and screen. I guess I'm still waiting for the contact lens HUD

ekianjo 3y ago

the author is very optimistic about having exponential hardware progress. he is seriously dreaming we are already reaching the limits of the lithography process...

adrian_b 3y ago

> "Eventually, there may be dozens of ways to make gestures with our fingers, each one a different command, like today’s keyboard shortcuts." I do not believe that this is a desirable evolution. The speed and accuracy of moving the fingers are significantly less than for moving the hand. A much better user interface can be achieved by holding a stylus in the hand and using the stylus for pointing or gestures. I have also considered this paragraph as extremely sad: > "In the presentation, when Jobs did the world’s first “swipe to unlock,” the audience made an audible gasp. A minute later, he brought up a list of artists in the phone’s “iPod” app and asked, “Well, how do I scroll through my list of artists? I just take my finger and scroll.” Another audible gasp. It’s weird that something so normal today was jaw-dropping 17 years ago. " The astonished reactions of the audience just demonstrates the sad fact that the majority of the computer users have always been brainwashed by the inferior Apple and Microsoft graphic user interfaces and they have never experienced a really well designed GUI. At that time I have been only mildly impressed by the fact that such a user interface has been finally implemented in a smartphone, because a GUI with finger gestures on a touchpad was just a much slower and much less accurate variant of the GUIs based on mouse gestures, like I had been using for many years in CAD/EDA programs for drawing, like those from Mentor Graphics. Unfortunately, such superior user interfaces have always been restricted to niche applications, while the mainstream operating systems have evolved to use worse pointing devices, like mice with scroll wheels or touch pads and touch screens (touch screens are justified only at smartphone sizes, when carrying any other pointing device may be inconvenient).

tpmoney 3y ago
I feel like you're missing two very important things: 1) A touch interface is a VASTLY different experience from a mouse / trackball gestures interface. There's a physicality there that simply isn't present when you're gesturing with a different device entirely and seeing the effects of that gesture on a disconnected screen. Touch to tap, and tap and hold have been gestures on track pads since the mid 90's. So using a touch pay with tap and hold to drag a folder around should be (by your reasoning) exactly the same as doing the same with a touch screen. And yet, controlling an iPad with a separate touch pad is a very different experience from controlling it directly from the screen. 2) Just how BAD previous touch screen devices were as far as control. Capacitive touch was a game changer here. I worked for Apple retail during the initial iPhone launch, and one of the things I had to teach ex-palm / handspring customers over and over again was to unlearn their habits formed by working around the limitations of resistive touch screens. Stop trying to tap with the tip of your finger nail, stop trying to tap just below/above/to the side of your target, put your finger down right over the key you want to press and trust the OS, etc. Of course this was jaw dropping, everything else to that point was usable, but finicky in ways that we would find incredibly annoying today.

ajonit 3y ago

Great review. I wonder how will these headsets affect eyesight?

superultra 3y ago

Nearly every post that sings the Vision’s praises mentions a kind of unwavering belief in a Moore’s Law of technological progress, which is very magical thinking that is not truly based on data but merely recency bias. The reality is that the challenges facing a better vision pro are much, much more difficult than the ones for early personal computing and smartphones. Some of these obstacles are outright technical. The Vision Pro is clearly best in class but the next iteration is going to take some significant technological leaps forward, some of which (screen latency) are physically insurmountable. The obstacles are cultural. When an iPhone showed up, there wasn’t much zeitgeist against using a computer or a blackberry too much. But there’s since been a lot of conversation about the nature of these tiny sceeens we keep drawing closer and closer to our eyes. I can see the Vision Pro becoming a tool for professionals, in the same space a dual monitor setup occupies. But AR/VR is such a viscerally compelling experience that think there may be an extensive backlash on all personal devices as a result, particularly as usage relates to young people. There’s just a lot of tough challenges ahead of adopting and I think hand waving these away due to “progress” is a little naive.

aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
matthewdgreen 3y ago
Being fashionable makes a huge difference. If the Vision can be reduced in size to something like a normal pair of sunglasses, I could see wearing one becoming popular. This level of miniaturization is obviously not happening tomorrow, but is it impossible in 10-15 years?
- layer8 3y ago
  It requires technical leaps of the kind that make predictions arbitrary. It could be 15 years, or 50.
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    I would be happy to bet on 15 vs. 50. Any reasonable way to make that happen?

blamestross 3y ago

https://149909199.v2.pressablecdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/S-Curves-2.png https://149909199.v2.pressablecdn.com/wp-content/uploads/202... This is the most ironic image I've seen in a while. "Even though I know all growth curves are sigmoid, I'm going to pretend the long term curve is exponential not also sigmoid"

akasakahakada 3y ago

> When you press the button at the top of the headset, your apps come up Give me SAO's 2 fingers gesture and I would consider it.

w4 3y ago

Great review. I agree with a lot of it; the one glaring exception is comfort. No matter which band I’m using, the Vision Pro is brutally uncomfortable after 10-15 minutes. This is not the case with other headsets, e.g. the Quest 3 with the elite strap. I can wear those for extended periods of time without discomfort. It’s amazing tech in a terrible (for me) form factor right now. Based on the varied reactions to comfort, my experience is clearly not universal, and I can’t imagine comfort getting worse. I hope that Apple improves comfort options for a broader audience in v2.

kevinmalone 3y ago
Have you tried a different facial interface? With width could especially cause trouble. I was also struggling with discomfort and took some time to dial the dual band in, and also changed my light seal to the one that was in the box, and comfort is now a non issue. Have worn it for 3-4 hour blocks of time and only taken it off because human needs (food, rest, etc).
- w4 3y ago
  I have. The other interface is better, but unfortunately still uncomfortable. The weight distribution is also an issue for me; the entire unit is a literal pain on the neck. Another issue that I haven’t seen commented on is that the fixed arms on the headset make getting a comfortable fit tricky. Other headsets’ arms pivot a few degrees so that you can better align the headset with your face. It’s a surprising result, because comfort is basically solved with other headsets. For example, I can wear the Quest 3 with the elite strap as long as I’d like, and the original PSVR was remarkably comfortable. I suspect the issue is that Apple wanted a ski goggle form factor rather than a rigid halo to make the device seem more futuristic and approachable, and the tech just isn’t there yet for the headset to be light enough for that form factor to work.

deafpolygon 3y ago

Honestly, I'm looking forward to this. When I'm old and I can't go anywhere [I'm almost 45], I'm still going to be able to go places and see things that current 70 year old people can't do due to health reasons. And it's going to be thanks to tech like this. It's a really great time to be alive.

penjelly 3y ago

> At least right now, it seems only a little more uncomfortable than wearing over-ear headphones for long periods of time. This might not apply to everyone, but I have not felt nauseous once while wearing it. i find this pretty hard to believe. AVP is 2.5x heavier than my over-ears, those dont front load my neck and my neck still feels it at the end of the day if i wear them too long.

vik0 3y ago

God, I hope this technology never catches on. It's scary to even think how the world (or, at least, the industrialized world) will be changed to become (even more) socially inept, and as a side effect, people becoming more and more depressed and anxious when they leave their little toy to go and interact with the real world (assuming people will ever leave their little headset.) Eyesight will also get much worse. I won't be surprised, if this catches on, that all babies born at a certain point in the future will have to wear glasses. We will become so fragile, not just at the societal level, but even at the individual level. Terrifying.