4 ms·

I'm worried that we're headed for another Dark Ages, between declining literacy rates, forced climate migrations, falling population (increasing population = hi

I'm worried that we're headed for another Dark Ages, between declining literacy rates, forced climate migrations, falling population (increasing population = higher specialization = more knowledge generation), overreliance on advanced technology, and complex systems that grow ever more rigid and lose their ability to adapt. With complex systems, when you get a shock to the fundamentals of the system, you often see the highest and more interconnected layers of the system fail first, since it's easier for simpler systems to reconfigure themselves into something that works. I wonder if something like Asimov's Encyclopedia Galactica is needed to preserve human knowledge for the upcoming dark ages, and if it's possible to keep the most impactful technologies (eg. electricity, semiconductors, software, antibiotics, heat pumps, transportation) but with a dramatically shortened supply chain so that they can continue to be produced when travel and transport outside of a metropolitan region may not be safe.

WalterBright 3y ago
Some years ago, I bought a nice electronics set from Amazon that essentially taught a basic electronics course. I was looking for one yesterday, but couldn't find one. All of them were centered around interfacing to an Arduino. I had to go to ebay to find a used one.
- Eisenstein 3y ago
  What about an Arduino makes it inappropriate to teach basic electronics?
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    Basic electronics is how resistor-capacitor-inductor circuits work, along with diodes and the various transistor devices, up to op-amps. Computers have nothing to do with it.
    - Eisenstein 3y ago
      Nothing is stopping you from demonstrating any basic circuit with an Ardiuno. It is a way of being able to learn and use basic electronics and also do something functional with them as well as learn how to code.
      - kwhitefoot 3y ago
        The computer gets in the way. Diffuses attention.
      - hakfoo 3y ago
        I think the problem is more that-- assuming a comparable price-- they're probably going to skimp out on the "lower level" stuff in a kit with an Arduino. If you have a perfect timer, you don't need to showcase basic resistor-capacitor timer circuits, or pack a huge bag of related components. If you can define any logic function you want in code, there's no need to discuss wiring 74xx gates to each other.
        Eisenstein 3y ago
        > I think the problem is more that-- assuming a comparable price-- they're probably going to skimp out on the "lower level" stuff in a kit with an Arduino. The person I replied to did not mention anything about what was included in the arduino kits, just that they refused to consider them at all. > If you can define any logic function you want in code, there's no need to discuss wiring 74xx gates to each other. How is wiring 74xx gates together more or less applicable to basic electronic circuits than an 8bit CPU breakout board?
      - WalterBright 3y ago
        https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-Project-Tutorial-Controller-Projects/dp/B01D8KOZF4 https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-Project-Tutorial-Controller-Pr... The focus is on using a computer to interface with sensors, LED displays, etc. Not learning analog circuitry. It doesn't include any capacitors or inductors, for example.
  - slowmovintarget 3y ago
    It's teaching the product not the principles.
    - Eisenstein 3y ago
      Well, to teach the principles you just need a pen and some paper and a calculator. Is using a multimeter to measure the output of a circuit 'teaching the product'?
- nostrademons 3y ago
  I'm also really worried about teaching chemistry/physics in this day of hypervigilant anti-terrorism. I saw a family setting off model rockets on a mudflat in the Bay Area; a couple Karens standing next to us threatened to call the police on them. With the departure of LUNAR from Moffett because the Air Force didn't want them back, there are now no acceptable model rocketry clubs or sites in the Bay Area. And now you've got to worry that you'll end up on some FBI watch list for ordering basic chemistry sets for kids.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    I was fortunate to get a decent chemistry set, as the next year they were emasculated. I had a lot of fun with it.
Eisenstein 3y ago
Isn't this a little hyperbolic? Go back to the 1920s and try and find a way to gain knowledge on something accessible but uncommon, like how to make glass. Would you have been able to do it without finding someone who knew already and would teach you? It is a relatively short chapter in our history that we have had access to such a large amount of information easily.
- nostrademons 3y ago
  Right, and I worry that this is the apogee of human knowledge and we're going to start a steep downhill slide relatively soon.
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  > Would you have been able to do it without finding someone who knew already Yes. Encyclopedias of the day had a lot of this sort of information and so did DIY books. I have a copy of Everything Within from about 1930 that has chapters on radio. In addition it tells you how to make a rectifier from scratch using just copper sheets and various chemicals. See also, for instance, The Art of Glass-Blowing by T.-P. Danger, 1831 "Artists and Students of the Experimental Sciences will find this work adapted to aid them effectually in the economical preparation of their Apparatus; and persons who would willingly occupy their leisure hours in practising the charming art of working Glass and Enamels with the Blowpipe, but who have hitherto been deterred by the anticipated expense of the instruments, and the imaginary difficulties of the undertaking, are taught herein the simplest, most expeditious, least expensive, and most effectual methods of working Glass into every variety of useful or fanciful device." https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/55266 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/55266 Not how to make glass I grant you.

WalterBright 3y ago

Some years ago, I bought a nice electronics set from Amazon that essentially taught a basic electronics course. I was looking for one yesterday, but couldn't find one. All of them were centered around interfacing to an Arduino. I had to go to ebay to find a used one.

Eisenstein 3y ago
What about an Arduino makes it inappropriate to teach basic electronics?
- WalterBright 3y ago
  Basic electronics is how resistor-capacitor-inductor circuits work, along with diodes and the various transistor devices, up to op-amps. Computers have nothing to do with it.
  - Eisenstein 3y ago
    Nothing is stopping you from demonstrating any basic circuit with an Ardiuno. It is a way of being able to learn and use basic electronics and also do something functional with them as well as learn how to code.
    - kwhitefoot 3y ago
      The computer gets in the way. Diffuses attention.
    - hakfoo 3y ago
      I think the problem is more that-- assuming a comparable price-- they're probably going to skimp out on the "lower level" stuff in a kit with an Arduino. If you have a perfect timer, you don't need to showcase basic resistor-capacitor timer circuits, or pack a huge bag of related components. If you can define any logic function you want in code, there's no need to discuss wiring 74xx gates to each other.
      - Eisenstein 3y ago
        > I think the problem is more that-- assuming a comparable price-- they're probably going to skimp out on the "lower level" stuff in a kit with an Arduino. The person I replied to did not mention anything about what was included in the arduino kits, just that they refused to consider them at all. > If you can define any logic function you want in code, there's no need to discuss wiring 74xx gates to each other. How is wiring 74xx gates together more or less applicable to basic electronic circuits than an 8bit CPU breakout board?
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-Project-Tutorial-Controller-Projects/dp/B01D8KOZF4 https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-Project-Tutorial-Controller-Pr... The focus is on using a computer to interface with sensors, LED displays, etc. Not learning analog circuitry. It doesn't include any capacitors or inductors, for example.
- slowmovintarget 3y ago
  It's teaching the product not the principles.
  - Eisenstein 3y ago
    Well, to teach the principles you just need a pen and some paper and a calculator. Is using a multimeter to measure the output of a circuit 'teaching the product'?
nostrademons 3y ago
I'm also really worried about teaching chemistry/physics in this day of hypervigilant anti-terrorism. I saw a family setting off model rockets on a mudflat in the Bay Area; a couple Karens standing next to us threatened to call the police on them. With the departure of LUNAR from Moffett because the Air Force didn't want them back, there are now no acceptable model rocketry clubs or sites in the Bay Area. And now you've got to worry that you'll end up on some FBI watch list for ordering basic chemistry sets for kids.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  I was fortunate to get a decent chemistry set, as the next year they were emasculated. I had a lot of fun with it.

Eisenstein 3y ago

Isn't this a little hyperbolic? Go back to the 1920s and try and find a way to gain knowledge on something accessible but uncommon, like how to make glass. Would you have been able to do it without finding someone who knew already and would teach you? It is a relatively short chapter in our history that we have had access to such a large amount of information easily.

nostrademons 3y ago
Right, and I worry that this is the apogee of human knowledge and we're going to start a steep downhill slide relatively soon.
kwhitefoot 3y ago
> Would you have been able to do it without finding someone who knew already Yes. Encyclopedias of the day had a lot of this sort of information and so did DIY books. I have a copy of Everything Within from about 1930 that has chapters on radio. In addition it tells you how to make a rectifier from scratch using just copper sheets and various chemicals. See also, for instance, The Art of Glass-Blowing by T.-P. Danger, 1831 "Artists and Students of the Experimental Sciences will find this work adapted to aid them effectually in the economical preparation of their Apparatus; and persons who would willingly occupy their leisure hours in practising the charming art of working Glass and Enamels with the Blowpipe, but who have hitherto been deterred by the anticipated expense of the instruments, and the imaginary difficulties of the undertaking, are taught herein the simplest, most expeditious, least expensive, and most effectual methods of working Glass into every variety of useful or fanciful device." https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/55266 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/55266 Not how to make glass I grant you.