5 ms·

Should I use a pie chart?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pyromaker 3y ago
Should you pay ~$10 per year for a domain to send one single message through? (and achieve a frontpage mention on HN) - yeah, I'd say it was worth it.
omoikane 3y ago
Reminds me of this site: https://shouldiuseacarousel.com/ https://shouldiuseacarousel.com/
- troupo 3y ago
  There is argument to be made for a kind of carousel: variant selection and product photos in shops. When I shop for clothes online, I click through colors and sometimes through photos to see clothes from different angles or zoomed in. It's a sneaky kind of carousel that is actually useful.
_air 3y ago
If I zoom in closely, I think I see a yes. Seriously, some data looks great in a pie chart
navls 3y ago
I wasn't aware they were controversial. I had to google to find some arguments against pie charts https://www.data-to-viz.com/caveat/pie.html https://www.data-to-viz.com/caveat/pie.html
- _dain_ 3y ago
  God I'd forgotten about that awful Steve Jobs one: https://s3.amazonaws.com/edwardtufte.com/pie_apple_marketshare.jpg https://s3.amazonaws.com/edwardtufte.com/pie_apple_marketsha... (the green segment is made to look larger than the purple one because of a perspective trick)
- chefandy 3y ago
  Even then, it's pretty ridiculous to say that this is a valid argument against using pie charts. It's a valid argument against using them when you've got multiple similarly sized slices, or some other thing that would make them the wrong choice, but there are great reasons to not use most visualizations in incompatible contexts. Just like anything else in graphic design, these things should be used when they are better at conveying a point than other methods and not used when they aren't. Coming up with rules like this is like saying "never use garlic" and then coming up with every dish from chocolate pudding to iced tea that's not made better with garlic. Use the right tool for the job. It's design "rules" like this that will inspire some insecure "Ha! Gotcha! So-called expert!" type of nerd rant from a developer in a meeting where I'm presenting work I've done as a designer.
  - PheonixPharts 3y ago
    Can you give me a single example where a pie chart would better convey information than a table? The only visualization more useless than a pie-chart is a 3d pie-chart.
    - chefandy 3y ago
      See my response to your comment above. You're ignoring the reason data visualizations exist in the first place.
      - PheonixPharts 3y ago
        > You're ignoring the reason data visualizations exist in the first place. My opinion on pie-charts and poor visualization comes from years of studying data visualization, not ignoring it. Would you argue that Tufte doesn't value data visualization since he holds the same views?
        chefandy 3y ago
        Tufte can back up what he says with reason and examples, rather than repeatedly making the same assertion. Just saying "well Tufte says so" is a pretty blatant appeal to authority.
- ggregoire 3y ago
  > In the adjacent pie chart, try to figure out which group is the biggest one [...]. You will probably struggle to do so and this is why pie charts must be avoided. It's not that bad when the purpose of the pie is not to figure out which group is the biggest. I find the pie pretty appropriate when the goal is to figure out - if all the groups are more or less the same - if one or several groups are way bigger than the other groups - if one or several groups are way smaller than the other groups Not saying pies are the best for this (bar charts work well too), just saying it works well. > try to order them by value I mean, why would you not order them already inside the chart? So that the reader doesn't have to do it.
  - PheonixPharts 3y ago
    > It's not that bad when the purpose of the pie is not to figure out which group is the biggest But it's not better than a sorted table: - A (90%) - B (5.1%) - C (4.9%) Which group there is biggest? Which is the smallest? > why would you not order them already inside the chart? What's the implicit ordering of a pie chart? It's not hard to define one that makes sense (start at midnight) but it's not implicit in the chart, it needs to be explained to the viewer. Since similar sized portions of the chart are hard to distinguish, there's no way to be visually certain that you are correctly understanding the ordering.
- PheonixPharts 3y ago
  > I had to google to find some arguments against pie charts Can you give me any arguments for pie charts? I also disagree with that article that the best alternative to a pie chart is a bar chart. Whenever your doing any sort of data visualization you should always ask "How does this representation convey information that cannot be represented in a table?" Can you provide an example where a pie chart would tell you more than could be conveyed in a table? Tables are incredibly information dense, have an unambiguous ordering and can easily scale to expressing 5-6 dimensions of information in the exact same space that a pie-chart can convey. Tables are limited in that they work best when representing a very small number of observations, but pie-charts and bar-charts share this same problem without any of the benefits of tables. If a table won't cut it, then you probably have enough data that a scatter plot is your best choice. Scatter plots also can easily handle an extra 2-3 dimensions (color, scale, and shape) of information.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    Charts are useful for quickly conveying relationships within data, not for presenting data as raw information. They're useful specifically because they're not extremely information dense. If you're making video media, an article, an infographic, a poster, slides for a presentation, or anything similar, tables usually have far less impact and don't convey relationships and context well. Whether charts are the right tool for the job is a communication question. What are you trying to communicate, why, to whom, and in what context? While it perennially annoys the hell out of many in the engineering mindset, people find strategies that take these distinctions into account valuable, and that's why visual designers exist.
    - PheonixPharts 3y ago
      > Charts To be clear, I'm specifically talking about pie-charts and not all charts. There are plenty of cases where a chart conveys information appropriate to the task. The relationships are visually represented in a table, the minimum table being just a vertical list. A table can be more, but it isn't required. Additionally the relationships in a table are more clearly represented in most all cases. Information density also doesn't imply that you most be conveying a lot of information, it relates to the efficiency of your use of visual space. There are no instances (aside for the other example of a clock plot) where the relationships in your data (since you don't want to use information) are not more clearly conveyed with a list then a pie chart. > and that's why visual designers exist. I've spent quite a bit of time working with and talking to visual designers and have yet to meet one who think pie-charts are an effective tool for visual communication.
Tempest1981 3y ago
PacMan pie charts are acceptable https://images.app.goo.gl/JoYtDHfGaCXsTpGK7 https://images.app.goo.gl/JoYtDHfGaCXsTpGK7
- PheonixPharts 3y ago
  Also cases where someone wants to visually represent exactly how much of a pie they've eaten.
Angostura 3y ago
Ironically - an effective use of a pie chart.
geckbench 3y ago
Pie charts are OK if there are only a few slices(2-4 is acceptable)
SushiHippie 3y ago
It kind of annoys me that this is a regular polygon and not a circle/pie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_polygon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_polygon
lkdfjlkdfjlg 3y ago
Is this reddit now? A post with a link to a website with a picture. Great stuff.
ClassyJacket 3y ago
why does this chart look like it's on ketamine? they have a site dedicated to pie charts but couldn't afford a real circle?
nomilk 3y ago
Being against pie charts is a great example of mid-wit (angry, ranting about nothing). The anti pie chart crowd recognises that other plots can achieve everything the pie chard does, and more. But the fail in this understanding is the assumption of "more is more". Sometimes you don't want readers getting down into the details. Sometimes you don't want readers comparing the relative sizes of pie segments (which the human eye tends to do on bar charts). Sometimes pie charts just suit the overall layout of the document they're part of. tl;dr be mindful there's often a better plot to use than a pie chart, but if you want to use a pie chart, go for it.
karaterobot 3y ago
I went looking for the famous Edward Tufte quote about pie charts, Tufte being one of the elder statesmen of data visualization, and found it at this old HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2991062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2991062 A table is nearly always better than a dumb pie chart; the only worse design than a pie chart is several of them, for then the viewer is asked to compare quantities located in spatial disarray both within and between charts [...] Given their low density and failure to order numbers along a visual dimension, pie charts should never be used.
xnx 3y ago
I like 2 slice pie charts for data where those 2 pieces encompass the whole. Bar charts are superior in every other way (3+ segments, easier to compare, etc.), but are not as good at conveying you're looking at the total.
ProxCoques 3y ago
In HCI, I think the general (and researched) consensus about pie charts is that they are fine and probably perform better than alternatives when they have a few (as in probably 4 or less) slices, but then go to total crap for anything much more. I think one of the best essays on this is from Stephen Few, but there's a fair amount of research on the Wikipedia page too. https://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/08-21-07.pdf https://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/08-21-07.pdf

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Should you pay ~$10 per year for a domain to send one single message through? (and achieve a frontpage mention on HN) - yeah, I'd say it was worth it.

omoikane 3y ago

Reminds me of this site: https://shouldiuseacarousel.com/ https://shouldiuseacarousel.com/

troupo 3y ago
There is argument to be made for a kind of carousel: variant selection and product photos in shops. When I shop for clothes online, I click through colors and sometimes through photos to see clothes from different angles or zoomed in. It's a sneaky kind of carousel that is actually useful.

_air 3y ago

If I zoom in closely, I think I see a yes. Seriously, some data looks great in a pie chart

navls 3y ago

I wasn't aware they were controversial. I had to google to find some arguments against pie charts https://www.data-to-viz.com/caveat/pie.html https://www.data-to-viz.com/caveat/pie.html

_dain_ 3y ago
God I'd forgotten about that awful Steve Jobs one: https://s3.amazonaws.com/edwardtufte.com/pie_apple_marketshare.jpg https://s3.amazonaws.com/edwardtufte.com/pie_apple_marketsha... (the green segment is made to look larger than the purple one because of a perspective trick)
chefandy 3y ago
Even then, it's pretty ridiculous to say that this is a valid argument against using pie charts. It's a valid argument against using them when you've got multiple similarly sized slices, or some other thing that would make them the wrong choice, but there are great reasons to not use most visualizations in incompatible contexts. Just like anything else in graphic design, these things should be used when they are better at conveying a point than other methods and not used when they aren't. Coming up with rules like this is like saying "never use garlic" and then coming up with every dish from chocolate pudding to iced tea that's not made better with garlic. Use the right tool for the job. It's design "rules" like this that will inspire some insecure "Ha! Gotcha! So-called expert!" type of nerd rant from a developer in a meeting where I'm presenting work I've done as a designer.
- PheonixPharts 3y ago
  Can you give me a single example where a pie chart would better convey information than a table? The only visualization more useless than a pie-chart is a 3d pie-chart.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    See my response to your comment above. You're ignoring the reason data visualizations exist in the first place.
    - PheonixPharts 3y ago
      > You're ignoring the reason data visualizations exist in the first place. My opinion on pie-charts and poor visualization comes from years of studying data visualization, not ignoring it. Would you argue that Tufte doesn't value data visualization since he holds the same views?
      - chefandy 3y ago
        Tufte can back up what he says with reason and examples, rather than repeatedly making the same assertion. Just saying "well Tufte says so" is a pretty blatant appeal to authority.
ggregoire 3y ago
> In the adjacent pie chart, try to figure out which group is the biggest one [...]. You will probably struggle to do so and this is why pie charts must be avoided. It's not that bad when the purpose of the pie is not to figure out which group is the biggest. I find the pie pretty appropriate when the goal is to figure out - if all the groups are more or less the same - if one or several groups are way bigger than the other groups - if one or several groups are way smaller than the other groups Not saying pies are the best for this (bar charts work well too), just saying it works well. > try to order them by value I mean, why would you not order them already inside the chart? So that the reader doesn't have to do it.
- PheonixPharts 3y ago
  > It's not that bad when the purpose of the pie is not to figure out which group is the biggest But it's not better than a sorted table: - A (90%) - B (5.1%) - C (4.9%) Which group there is biggest? Which is the smallest? > why would you not order them already inside the chart? What's the implicit ordering of a pie chart? It's not hard to define one that makes sense (start at midnight) but it's not implicit in the chart, it needs to be explained to the viewer. Since similar sized portions of the chart are hard to distinguish, there's no way to be visually certain that you are correctly understanding the ordering.
PheonixPharts 3y ago
> I had to google to find some arguments against pie charts Can you give me any arguments for pie charts? I also disagree with that article that the best alternative to a pie chart is a bar chart. Whenever your doing any sort of data visualization you should always ask "How does this representation convey information that cannot be represented in a table?" Can you provide an example where a pie chart would tell you more than could be conveyed in a table? Tables are incredibly information dense, have an unambiguous ordering and can easily scale to expressing 5-6 dimensions of information in the exact same space that a pie-chart can convey. Tables are limited in that they work best when representing a very small number of observations, but pie-charts and bar-charts share this same problem without any of the benefits of tables. If a table won't cut it, then you probably have enough data that a scatter plot is your best choice. Scatter plots also can easily handle an extra 2-3 dimensions (color, scale, and shape) of information.
- chefandy 3y ago
  Charts are useful for quickly conveying relationships within data, not for presenting data as raw information. They're useful specifically because they're not extremely information dense. If you're making video media, an article, an infographic, a poster, slides for a presentation, or anything similar, tables usually have far less impact and don't convey relationships and context well. Whether charts are the right tool for the job is a communication question. What are you trying to communicate, why, to whom, and in what context? While it perennially annoys the hell out of many in the engineering mindset, people find strategies that take these distinctions into account valuable, and that's why visual designers exist.
  - PheonixPharts 3y ago
    > Charts To be clear, I'm specifically talking about pie-charts and not all charts. There are plenty of cases where a chart conveys information appropriate to the task. The relationships are visually represented in a table, the minimum table being just a vertical list. A table can be more, but it isn't required. Additionally the relationships in a table are more clearly represented in most all cases. Information density also doesn't imply that you most be conveying a lot of information, it relates to the efficiency of your use of visual space. There are no instances (aside for the other example of a clock plot) where the relationships in your data (since you don't want to use information) are not more clearly conveyed with a list then a pie chart. > and that's why visual designers exist. I've spent quite a bit of time working with and talking to visual designers and have yet to meet one who think pie-charts are an effective tool for visual communication.

Tempest1981 3y ago

PacMan pie charts are acceptable https://images.app.goo.gl/JoYtDHfGaCXsTpGK7 https://images.app.goo.gl/JoYtDHfGaCXsTpGK7

PheonixPharts 3y ago
Also cases where someone wants to visually represent exactly how much of a pie they've eaten.

Angostura 3y ago

Ironically - an effective use of a pie chart.

geckbench 3y ago

Pie charts are OK if there are only a few slices(2-4 is acceptable)

SushiHippie 3y ago

It kind of annoys me that this is a regular polygon and not a circle/pie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_polygon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_polygon

lkdfjlkdfjlg 3y ago

Is this reddit now? A post with a link to a website with a picture. Great stuff.

ClassyJacket 3y ago

why does this chart look like it's on ketamine? they have a site dedicated to pie charts but couldn't afford a real circle?

nomilk 3y ago

Being against pie charts is a great example of mid-wit (angry, ranting about nothing). The anti pie chart crowd recognises that other plots can achieve everything the pie chard does, and more. But the fail in this understanding is the assumption of "more is more". Sometimes you don't want readers getting down into the details. Sometimes you don't want readers comparing the relative sizes of pie segments (which the human eye tends to do on bar charts). Sometimes pie charts just suit the overall layout of the document they're part of. tl;dr be mindful there's often a better plot to use than a pie chart, but if you want to use a pie chart, go for it.

karaterobot 3y ago

I went looking for the famous Edward Tufte quote about pie charts, Tufte being one of the elder statesmen of data visualization, and found it at this old HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2991062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2991062 A table is nearly always better than a dumb pie chart; the only worse design than a pie chart is several of them, for then the viewer is asked to compare quantities located in spatial disarray both within and between charts [...] Given their low density and failure to order numbers along a visual dimension, pie charts should never be used.

xnx 3y ago

I like 2 slice pie charts for data where those 2 pieces encompass the whole. Bar charts are superior in every other way (3+ segments, easier to compare, etc.), but are not as good at conveying you're looking at the total.

ProxCoques 3y ago

In HCI, I think the general (and researched) consensus about pie charts is that they are fine and probably perform better than alternatives when they have a few (as in probably 4 or less) slices, but then go to total crap for anything much more. I think one of the best essays on this is from Stephen Few, but there's a fair amount of research on the Wikipedia page too. https://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/08-21-07.pdf https://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/08-21-07.pdf