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>America is mostly suburban by choice. America is mostly suburban not by choice but because suburbanites voted to make it illegal for their neighbors to increm

by scoofy 3y ago

>America is mostly suburban by choice. America is mostly suburban not by choice but because suburbanites voted to make it illegal for their neighbors to incrementally increase density. The entire argument is so fucked up in America because the nimbys keep framing it as fucking high-rise condos vs single-family homes... when throughout most of history, the obvious solution for housing shortages was just converting some homes into duplexes. God I hate this argument. You can't say Americans choose suburbia when it's literally illegal to do anything else. It's like saying "Northern Californians just like buying their electricity from PG&E" when it's literally the only legal option.

tempsy 3y ago
I’m saying most people given a choice between buying a house with a yard and buying a condo in the same city would choose the detached house. The main argument for choosing a condo is cost, but outside the most expensive coastal areas like NYC or LA a house is not so prohibitively expensive that it makes a lot of sense to buy an apartment instead. Also cannot tell you how many times I’ve seen people even in a place like San Francisco complain about condo HOA fees which can be close to $1000 a month. Many people don’t want to pay those.
al_borland 3y ago
If people moved to the suburbs, then voted to put rules in place to maintain the reasons they moved there in the first place, that’s choice. They chose to move to the suburbs. They chose to create those rules. If that’s what they want, and people come to town and try to turn it into something else, they’re going to have to keep moving, which they don’t want, so they vote to keep things the same. People can choose how urban or suburban they want to be, by choosing a community that fits what they want. Don’t move to a cookie cutter suburban area expecting it to change to fit your desires. The current setup evolved over decades and won’t change over night, and it is the way it is, because people wanted it that way (at least at some point in time). If people wanted to change the rules of the city, they’d put it on the ballot and vote. If this isn’t happening, it’s because they are choosing not to. This doesn’t mean people don’t have choice, it just means that if you want something different today, you need to choose somewhere else to live. The alternative is choosing to get involved in local government and working to change those rules, and getting the citizens on your side. That can be a long road, but someone fought to do that in the past. There are a lot of reasons people may not want to live next to a bunch of rental units or low income housing. Call them names if you want, but forcing this on them is taking away their choice.
- scoofy 3y ago
  > If this isn’t happening, it’s because they are choosing not to. My point is that this is happening. This is exactly what’s happening. In California and across the country, local control is exactly being overruled by state power, exactly because suburbs have created impenetrable legal requirements for anyone who does not already own a home to build one.

by scoofy 3y ago

tempsy 3y ago

I’m saying most people given a choice between buying a house with a yard and buying a condo in the same city would choose the detached house. The main argument for choosing a condo is cost, but outside the most expensive coastal areas like NYC or LA a house is not so prohibitively expensive that it makes a lot of sense to buy an apartment instead. Also cannot tell you how many times I’ve seen people even in a place like San Francisco complain about condo HOA fees which can be close to $1000 a month. Many people don’t want to pay those.

al_borland 3y ago

If people moved to the suburbs, then voted to put rules in place to maintain the reasons they moved there in the first place, that’s choice. They chose to move to the suburbs. They chose to create those rules. If that’s what they want, and people come to town and try to turn it into something else, they’re going to have to keep moving, which they don’t want, so they vote to keep things the same. People can choose how urban or suburban they want to be, by choosing a community that fits what they want. Don’t move to a cookie cutter suburban area expecting it to change to fit your desires. The current setup evolved over decades and won’t change over night, and it is the way it is, because people wanted it that way (at least at some point in time). If people wanted to change the rules of the city, they’d put it on the ballot and vote. If this isn’t happening, it’s because they are choosing not to. This doesn’t mean people don’t have choice, it just means that if you want something different today, you need to choose somewhere else to live. The alternative is choosing to get involved in local government and working to change those rules, and getting the citizens on your side. That can be a long road, but someone fought to do that in the past. There are a lot of reasons people may not want to live next to a bunch of rental units or low income housing. Call them names if you want, but forcing this on them is taking away their choice.

scoofy 3y ago
> If this isn’t happening, it’s because they are choosing not to. My point is that this is happening. This is exactly what’s happening. In California and across the country, local control is exactly being overruled by state power, exactly because suburbs have created impenetrable legal requirements for anyone who does not already own a home to build one.