7 ms·

America is mostly suburban by choice. Most people do not want to live in an apartment or condo long term if they plan on raising or have a family if they live b

by tempsy 3y ago

America is mostly suburban by choice. Most people do not want to live in an apartment or condo long term if they plan on raising or have a family if they live basically anywhere that isn’t NYC. I find the YIMBY assumption that everyone wishes every city and town was more NYC to just be untrue. People just want detached houses to be cheaper. Most aren’t dreaming about affording a 3 or 4 bed apartment.

woah 3y ago
Why are apartments in the city so much more expensive then? Your opinion is contradicted by reality.
- Ajedi32 3y ago
  There's less space to build apartments in the city. So even if demand is lower, it could simply be that supply is lower still.
- geodel 3y ago
  Because there are lot of people who are single/couple, living with boy/girl or just friends, going to university, traveling job and so on. As you can see there is large category of people who are not raising families or planning for long term in city. So obviously there is big demand of apartments but not family size apartments.
- its_ethan 3y ago
  It feels like you're comparing apples to oranges here. For one, you need a pretty significant down payment for a home where as you need maybe 1months rent as a reimbursable security deposit for an apartment. Being able to afford a $2000/month apartment != you could afford to go out and buy a $1800/month house. Supply and demand is also tied into this - younger people who want to live in cities flock to like 3-5 major cities, which have populations upwards of 5m. If you aren't trying to live in a city (like the OP suggested) you have (basically) the entire rest of the country to choose from.
  - woah 3y ago
    Seems like pretty circular logic to me: Apartments in the city are too expensive -> It's because we're not building enough apartments in the city -> But Americans don't want to live in apartments in the city -> Why are they so expensive then? -> Well, see, it's because there is too much demand and not enough supply, buut not like the article says, actually the people who want these apartments aren't real Americans or maybe they deep down really DO want a suburban house but they just don't know it etc etc etc
bityard 3y ago
City life is fine when you're young or just have a very "busy" lifestyle. I myself didn't care for it much. When you have kids and they start growing up, you eventually long for them to experience a slower pace of life, spend long days exploring a forest that rarely sees children stomping through it, and just generally take in some relative peace and quiet. If you're fortunate and work hard (both are necessary), you may be able to afford a few acres of trees that you can call your own and have a little bit of space to spread out in and enjoy before your short time on the planet nears its conclusion. At least, that is my experience so far, YMMV.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Another factor for people who go suburban to raise families is that it's more affordable, at a time when they have a major expense.
- anon291 3y ago
  The vast majority of suburbanites live nowhere near a 'forest'. Take Orange County, CA, or the Inland Empire. Suburb central... not a forest in sight. Meanwhile, I live in Inner Portland (like 1.5 miles from downtown) and my kids just went to an actual forest for their morning 'forest school'. Part of the problem with many American suburbs is that they're not dense enough, thus not leaving any room for nature. Portland is a much more centralized city, and things are easier to get to. A forest enclave is a few minutes drive / train ride, and the actual forest that is a pretty much continuous ring to Alaska and the Northern portions of Canada is about an 45 minute drive. Growing up in Southern California a 45 minute drive in suburbia leads you to ... more suburbia. Meanhwhile, in concentrated Portland, a 45-minute drive from the inner city leads you to... empty land. It's a very different experience. We get the best of both worlds. My kids can walk / bike to their activities; we're smack dab next to world-class museums and zoos and cultural events; and the kids get to enjoy ample time in the wilds exploring. Why anyone would choose a typical suburb over this, I cannot comprehend. The only reason that makes the most sense for me is cost. I agree living in the city can be more expensive due to the dearth of housing. Completely understand that. However, if we built it up more, it would be fine. Portland feels empty most of the time anyway. Even before COVID / protests, it still felt pretty empty, and it's in the top 25 US metros for population, so most people are going to be living in less populated areas.
wolverine876 3y ago
There are other dense cities besides NY, and they have the highest rents. You are welcome to your own preferences, but why is it important to insist that others can't have different ones? What is it to you if people like cities?
- its_ethan 3y ago
  > What is it to you...? If the people who live in cities have some fantasy about how they think people should live, and they push for legislation to be passed to "fix" the issues they see in the city, then laws/rules can end up being applied at a state level. That would then impact the people who opted to not live in a city - where the issues are potentially stemming from in the first place..
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Fair enough, though that goes both ways. Lots of people outside cities, especially NY, will tell you how crazy and dangerous they are, impose very dangerous things on them (such as the drug war), and remove local officials elected by citizens (Kentucky state legislature, Florida DAs, Philadelphia DA, etc.). My impression is that people in major cities don't care what you do in the suburbs.
foofie 3y ago
> People just want detached houses to be cheaper. Most aren’t dreaming about affording a 3 or 4 bed apartment. I'm skeptical of your claim. From what I read in social networks, newer generations of Americans don't even believe they will ever afford an apartment, let alone a detached house. I seriously doubt that there's a generation of choosing beggars who only accept living in a type of home they can't possibly even dream of affording.
- tempsy 3y ago
  I don’t know what you mean by this at all. I don’t think there’s any connection between what someone wants and what someone can afford. And the point is a 4 bedroom condo or apartment in an expensive urban city is going to be significantly more expensive than a house in some cheaper suburb. Lots of people do choose to move out of cities into suburbs for this reason. That isn’t a new thing.
  - foofie 3y ago
    > And the point is a 4 bedroom condo or apartment in an expensive urban city is going to be significantly more expensive than a house in some cheaper suburb. You're making hypothetical claims comparing "expensive urban city" with "cheaper suburbs". Your hypothetical scenario would only be valid if there are no affordable urban areas and there is no tradeoff in living in the boonies, and the only way that people could conceivably live is in >3bedroom mansions. The whole world does not live like this, including the US. It sounds like the real estate version of "let them eat cake".
hooverd 3y ago
Personally, I want there to be more family-sized apartments so there's less competition for the inner ring suburbs.
scoofy 3y ago
>America is mostly suburban by choice. America is mostly suburban not by choice but because suburbanites voted to make it illegal for their neighbors to incrementally increase density. The entire argument is so fucked up in America because the nimbys keep framing it as fucking high-rise condos vs single-family homes... when throughout most of history, the obvious solution for housing shortages was just converting some homes into duplexes. God I hate this argument. You can't say Americans choose suburbia when it's literally illegal to do anything else. It's like saying "Northern Californians just like buying their electricity from PG&E" when it's literally the only legal option.
- tempsy 3y ago
  I’m saying most people given a choice between buying a house with a yard and buying a condo in the same city would choose the detached house. The main argument for choosing a condo is cost, but outside the most expensive coastal areas like NYC or LA a house is not so prohibitively expensive that it makes a lot of sense to buy an apartment instead. Also cannot tell you how many times I’ve seen people even in a place like San Francisco complain about condo HOA fees which can be close to $1000 a month. Many people don’t want to pay those.
- al_borland 3y ago
  If people moved to the suburbs, then voted to put rules in place to maintain the reasons they moved there in the first place, that’s choice. They chose to move to the suburbs. They chose to create those rules. If that’s what they want, and people come to town and try to turn it into something else, they’re going to have to keep moving, which they don’t want, so they vote to keep things the same. People can choose how urban or suburban they want to be, by choosing a community that fits what they want. Don’t move to a cookie cutter suburban area expecting it to change to fit your desires. The current setup evolved over decades and won’t change over night, and it is the way it is, because people wanted it that way (at least at some point in time). If people wanted to change the rules of the city, they’d put it on the ballot and vote. If this isn’t happening, it’s because they are choosing not to. This doesn’t mean people don’t have choice, it just means that if you want something different today, you need to choose somewhere else to live. The alternative is choosing to get involved in local government and working to change those rules, and getting the citizens on your side. That can be a long road, but someone fought to do that in the past. There are a lot of reasons people may not want to live next to a bunch of rental units or low income housing. Call them names if you want, but forcing this on them is taking away their choice.

by tempsy 3y ago

woah 3y ago

Why are apartments in the city so much more expensive then? Your opinion is contradicted by reality.

Ajedi32 3y ago
There's less space to build apartments in the city. So even if demand is lower, it could simply be that supply is lower still.
geodel 3y ago
Because there are lot of people who are single/couple, living with boy/girl or just friends, going to university, traveling job and so on. As you can see there is large category of people who are not raising families or planning for long term in city. So obviously there is big demand of apartments but not family size apartments.
its_ethan 3y ago
It feels like you're comparing apples to oranges here. For one, you need a pretty significant down payment for a home where as you need maybe 1months rent as a reimbursable security deposit for an apartment. Being able to afford a $2000/month apartment != you could afford to go out and buy a $1800/month house. Supply and demand is also tied into this - younger people who want to live in cities flock to like 3-5 major cities, which have populations upwards of 5m. If you aren't trying to live in a city (like the OP suggested) you have (basically) the entire rest of the country to choose from.
- woah 3y ago
  Seems like pretty circular logic to me: Apartments in the city are too expensive -> It's because we're not building enough apartments in the city -> But Americans don't want to live in apartments in the city -> Why are they so expensive then? -> Well, see, it's because there is too much demand and not enough supply, buut not like the article says, actually the people who want these apartments aren't real Americans or maybe they deep down really DO want a suburban house but they just don't know it etc etc etc

bityard 3y ago

City life is fine when you're young or just have a very "busy" lifestyle. I myself didn't care for it much. When you have kids and they start growing up, you eventually long for them to experience a slower pace of life, spend long days exploring a forest that rarely sees children stomping through it, and just generally take in some relative peace and quiet. If you're fortunate and work hard (both are necessary), you may be able to afford a few acres of trees that you can call your own and have a little bit of space to spread out in and enjoy before your short time on the planet nears its conclusion. At least, that is my experience so far, YMMV.

wolverine876 3y ago
Another factor for people who go suburban to raise families is that it's more affordable, at a time when they have a major expense.
anon291 3y ago
The vast majority of suburbanites live nowhere near a 'forest'. Take Orange County, CA, or the Inland Empire. Suburb central... not a forest in sight. Meanwhile, I live in Inner Portland (like 1.5 miles from downtown) and my kids just went to an actual forest for their morning 'forest school'. Part of the problem with many American suburbs is that they're not dense enough, thus not leaving any room for nature. Portland is a much more centralized city, and things are easier to get to. A forest enclave is a few minutes drive / train ride, and the actual forest that is a pretty much continuous ring to Alaska and the Northern portions of Canada is about an 45 minute drive. Growing up in Southern California a 45 minute drive in suburbia leads you to ... more suburbia. Meanhwhile, in concentrated Portland, a 45-minute drive from the inner city leads you to... empty land. It's a very different experience. We get the best of both worlds. My kids can walk / bike to their activities; we're smack dab next to world-class museums and zoos and cultural events; and the kids get to enjoy ample time in the wilds exploring. Why anyone would choose a typical suburb over this, I cannot comprehend. The only reason that makes the most sense for me is cost. I agree living in the city can be more expensive due to the dearth of housing. Completely understand that. However, if we built it up more, it would be fine. Portland feels empty most of the time anyway. Even before COVID / protests, it still felt pretty empty, and it's in the top 25 US metros for population, so most people are going to be living in less populated areas.

wolverine876 3y ago

There are other dense cities besides NY, and they have the highest rents. You are welcome to your own preferences, but why is it important to insist that others can't have different ones? What is it to you if people like cities?

its_ethan 3y ago
> What is it to you...? If the people who live in cities have some fantasy about how they think people should live, and they push for legislation to be passed to "fix" the issues they see in the city, then laws/rules can end up being applied at a state level. That would then impact the people who opted to not live in a city - where the issues are potentially stemming from in the first place..
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Fair enough, though that goes both ways. Lots of people outside cities, especially NY, will tell you how crazy and dangerous they are, impose very dangerous things on them (such as the drug war), and remove local officials elected by citizens (Kentucky state legislature, Florida DAs, Philadelphia DA, etc.). My impression is that people in major cities don't care what you do in the suburbs.

foofie 3y ago

> People just want detached houses to be cheaper. Most aren’t dreaming about affording a 3 or 4 bed apartment. I'm skeptical of your claim. From what I read in social networks, newer generations of Americans don't even believe they will ever afford an apartment, let alone a detached house. I seriously doubt that there's a generation of choosing beggars who only accept living in a type of home they can't possibly even dream of affording.

tempsy 3y ago
I don’t know what you mean by this at all. I don’t think there’s any connection between what someone wants and what someone can afford. And the point is a 4 bedroom condo or apartment in an expensive urban city is going to be significantly more expensive than a house in some cheaper suburb. Lots of people do choose to move out of cities into suburbs for this reason. That isn’t a new thing.
- foofie 3y ago
  > And the point is a 4 bedroom condo or apartment in an expensive urban city is going to be significantly more expensive than a house in some cheaper suburb. You're making hypothetical claims comparing "expensive urban city" with "cheaper suburbs". Your hypothetical scenario would only be valid if there are no affordable urban areas and there is no tradeoff in living in the boonies, and the only way that people could conceivably live is in >3bedroom mansions. The whole world does not live like this, including the US. It sounds like the real estate version of "let them eat cake".

hooverd 3y ago

Personally, I want there to be more family-sized apartments so there's less competition for the inner ring suburbs.

scoofy 3y ago

>America is mostly suburban by choice. America is mostly suburban not by choice but because suburbanites voted to make it illegal for their neighbors to incrementally increase density. The entire argument is so fucked up in America because the nimbys keep framing it as fucking high-rise condos vs single-family homes... when throughout most of history, the obvious solution for housing shortages was just converting some homes into duplexes. God I hate this argument. You can't say Americans choose suburbia when it's literally illegal to do anything else. It's like saying "Northern Californians just like buying their electricity from PG&E" when it's literally the only legal option.

tempsy 3y ago
I’m saying most people given a choice between buying a house with a yard and buying a condo in the same city would choose the detached house. The main argument for choosing a condo is cost, but outside the most expensive coastal areas like NYC or LA a house is not so prohibitively expensive that it makes a lot of sense to buy an apartment instead. Also cannot tell you how many times I’ve seen people even in a place like San Francisco complain about condo HOA fees which can be close to $1000 a month. Many people don’t want to pay those.
al_borland 3y ago
If people moved to the suburbs, then voted to put rules in place to maintain the reasons they moved there in the first place, that’s choice. They chose to move to the suburbs. They chose to create those rules. If that’s what they want, and people come to town and try to turn it into something else, they’re going to have to keep moving, which they don’t want, so they vote to keep things the same. People can choose how urban or suburban they want to be, by choosing a community that fits what they want. Don’t move to a cookie cutter suburban area expecting it to change to fit your desires. The current setup evolved over decades and won’t change over night, and it is the way it is, because people wanted it that way (at least at some point in time). If people wanted to change the rules of the city, they’d put it on the ballot and vote. If this isn’t happening, it’s because they are choosing not to. This doesn’t mean people don’t have choice, it just means that if you want something different today, you need to choose somewhere else to live. The alternative is choosing to get involved in local government and working to change those rules, and getting the citizens on your side. That can be a long road, but someone fought to do that in the past. There are a lot of reasons people may not want to live next to a bunch of rental units or low income housing. Call them names if you want, but forcing this on them is taking away their choice.