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The whole idea that you can sort energy usage into useful for society or not buckets is pretty ridiculous. Ok, Bitcoin bad. What about video games? Netflix? Po

The whole idea that you can sort energy usage into useful for society or not buckets is pretty ridiculous. Ok, Bitcoin bad. What about video games? Netflix? Porn? The very idea of sorting energy use like that is a very slippery slope. We have markets for a reason. They help us determine how the aggregated society values one or another thing without relying on value judgment.

dr-detroit 3y ago
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hk__2 3y ago
> The whole idea that you can sort energy usage into useful for society or not buckets is pretty ridiculous. > > Ok, Bitcoin bad. What about video games? Netflix? Porn? As other have pointed out, Bitcoin relies on a larger and larger usage of energy by design. You could to a more energy-efficient Netflix, but you cannot do a more energy-efficient Bitcoin.
- greyface- 3y ago
  > larger and larger usage of energy by design It's actually the opposite: its energy usage shrinks and shrinks, by design. Every 210,000 blocks (~4 years), the block reward (mining subsidy) drops in half. At the limit, it approaches zero, and the network can only afford to spend as much on energy as users pay in transaction fees. Admittedly, "the limit" is quite a few years off, and there's a big subsidy still. I'm surprised we haven't seen taxing authorities go after block rewards specifically - they're why miners are currently willing to spend 10~20x on energy vs what users pay them for transactions.
- RedNifre 3y ago
  Sure you can, what is called "Proof of work" in the context of Bitcoin is actually "Proof of money lost" in the form of paid electricity. If you taxed mining at 90%, you would also reduce mining and thus electricity consumption by 90%. (Ideally, this would be a global tax and not too high, since reducing mining too much would compromise security)
  - Detrytus 3y ago
    Relying on taxes instead of Proof of Work kind of goes against core premise of Bitcoin: not relying on centralized authority. To make sure that all miners pay taxes you need tax office to collect them. And of course some criminal miners would find a way to avoid those taxes, making it 90% cheaper for them to mount 51% attack.
realreality 3y ago
> Ok, Bitcoin bad. What about video games? Netflix? Porn? Yes, they're all bad. Markets are no substitute for morality. And if the market properly accounted for environmental damage, all of those uses of energy would be priced out of existence.
- SeanAnderson 3y ago
  I don't think you're going to make many friends arguing that all electronic recreational activities are bad.
  - realreality 3y ago
    I know. Addicts don’t like to hear about how destructive their addictions are. Our society is addicted to energy.
    - DaSHacka 3y ago
      There's some irony to posting this on a website, run on a server powered by significant amounts of electricity, by a device operating on electricity, communicating with other electric devices via electricity to reach the destination. Are you included in this group of addicts?
      - realreality 3y ago
        > There's some irony to posting this on a website... I try to use this medium to share a perspective that addicts wouldn't ordinarily encounter. It's probably not very effective, since the addiction runs so deep.
acdha 3y ago
Bitcoin is designed to be inefficient: the network adjusts to use more power as it becomes available. None of the other things you mentioned have that mechanism where greater usage makes them need more power for everyone who was already there. The closest you might come is something like road traffic where the situation gets asymptomatically worse as more people start driving, but even that is much better than Bitcoin because people aren’t just driving because they can and will reduce their driving when traffic is unpleasant. Bitcoin is somewhat uniquely poorly-architected in a way which deters adoption but has also become a quasi-religious point preventing the design from being fixed.
alchemist1e9 3y ago
It takes both intellectual and emotional maturity to understand and accept the wisdom and power of free markets. Bitcoin is delivering what the market wants an uncensored currency outside the control of governments. This is only the beginning of the outrage over Bitcoin, wait until it does another 10x gain in value and fiat currency failures grow worldwide. The next few decades will require a lot of popcorn to watch the show when calls to ban it only result in more rapid spikes in it’s value appreciating.
- lovich 3y ago
  replace "Bitcoin" with "God" in this comment and it sounds like a cult leader. Since the beginning of time there have always been a group of humans who would like the ability to not follow the rules set by whatever accounts for leadership in their group. Bitcoin isn't feeding some novel desire. And Bitcoin/crypto evangelists still havent grappled with the fact that if they ever actually succeed in becoming a real rival of fiat currencies then they are going to find out what state violence looks like when they continue not complying with regulations. Like do you really believe if Iran/North Korea/Russia converted over their entire economy to using bitcoin to escape US regulations, that you are going to be able to continue using it without any sort of reaction from the US? Or if Chinese citizens use it en masse to completely avoid government controls, that the Chinese government will just throw up their hands and say "shucks"? You can fill in that statement with any government and a group they intend to control and have the ability to exert violence on
  - alchemist1e9 3y ago
    Ok let’s try it: > It takes both intellectual and emotional maturity to understand and accept the wisdom and power of free markets. God is delivering what the market wants an uncensored currency outside the control of governments. This is only the beginning of the outrage over God, wait until he does another 10x gain in value and fiat currency failures grow worldwide. The next few decades will require a lot of popcorn to watch the show when calls to ban God only result in more rapid spikes in his value appreciating. Not really getting the cult leader vibes, sorry. but I sure am getting some creepy authoritarian vibes from your comment. Feels like you’re itching to help hand out this violence … I know you will smash down the doors of these disobedient Bitcoiners and seize their coins from under their pillows! or maybe bomb some mining facilities. Good luck with that state violence. It’s obsolete.

dr-detroit 3y ago

[dead]

hk__2 3y ago

> The whole idea that you can sort energy usage into useful for society or not buckets is pretty ridiculous. > > Ok, Bitcoin bad. What about video games? Netflix? Porn? As other have pointed out, Bitcoin relies on a larger and larger usage of energy by design. You could to a more energy-efficient Netflix, but you cannot do a more energy-efficient Bitcoin.

greyface- 3y ago
> larger and larger usage of energy by design It's actually the opposite: its energy usage shrinks and shrinks, by design. Every 210,000 blocks (~4 years), the block reward (mining subsidy) drops in half. At the limit, it approaches zero, and the network can only afford to spend as much on energy as users pay in transaction fees. Admittedly, "the limit" is quite a few years off, and there's a big subsidy still. I'm surprised we haven't seen taxing authorities go after block rewards specifically - they're why miners are currently willing to spend 10~20x on energy vs what users pay them for transactions.
RedNifre 3y ago
Sure you can, what is called "Proof of work" in the context of Bitcoin is actually "Proof of money lost" in the form of paid electricity. If you taxed mining at 90%, you would also reduce mining and thus electricity consumption by 90%. (Ideally, this would be a global tax and not too high, since reducing mining too much would compromise security)
- Detrytus 3y ago
  Relying on taxes instead of Proof of Work kind of goes against core premise of Bitcoin: not relying on centralized authority. To make sure that all miners pay taxes you need tax office to collect them. And of course some criminal miners would find a way to avoid those taxes, making it 90% cheaper for them to mount 51% attack.

realreality 3y ago

> Ok, Bitcoin bad. What about video games? Netflix? Porn? Yes, they're all bad. Markets are no substitute for morality. And if the market properly accounted for environmental damage, all of those uses of energy would be priced out of existence.

SeanAnderson 3y ago
I don't think you're going to make many friends arguing that all electronic recreational activities are bad.
- realreality 3y ago
  I know. Addicts don’t like to hear about how destructive their addictions are. Our society is addicted to energy.
  - DaSHacka 3y ago
    There's some irony to posting this on a website, run on a server powered by significant amounts of electricity, by a device operating on electricity, communicating with other electric devices via electricity to reach the destination. Are you included in this group of addicts?
    - realreality 3y ago
      > There's some irony to posting this on a website... I try to use this medium to share a perspective that addicts wouldn't ordinarily encounter. It's probably not very effective, since the addiction runs so deep.

acdha 3y ago

Bitcoin is designed to be inefficient: the network adjusts to use more power as it becomes available. None of the other things you mentioned have that mechanism where greater usage makes them need more power for everyone who was already there. The closest you might come is something like road traffic where the situation gets asymptomatically worse as more people start driving, but even that is much better than Bitcoin because people aren’t just driving because they can and will reduce their driving when traffic is unpleasant. Bitcoin is somewhat uniquely poorly-architected in a way which deters adoption but has also become a quasi-religious point preventing the design from being fixed.

alchemist1e9 3y ago

It takes both intellectual and emotional maturity to understand and accept the wisdom and power of free markets. Bitcoin is delivering what the market wants an uncensored currency outside the control of governments. This is only the beginning of the outrage over Bitcoin, wait until it does another 10x gain in value and fiat currency failures grow worldwide. The next few decades will require a lot of popcorn to watch the show when calls to ban it only result in more rapid spikes in it’s value appreciating.

lovich 3y ago
replace "Bitcoin" with "God" in this comment and it sounds like a cult leader. Since the beginning of time there have always been a group of humans who would like the ability to not follow the rules set by whatever accounts for leadership in their group. Bitcoin isn't feeding some novel desire. And Bitcoin/crypto evangelists still havent grappled with the fact that if they ever actually succeed in becoming a real rival of fiat currencies then they are going to find out what state violence looks like when they continue not complying with regulations. Like do you really believe if Iran/North Korea/Russia converted over their entire economy to using bitcoin to escape US regulations, that you are going to be able to continue using it without any sort of reaction from the US? Or if Chinese citizens use it en masse to completely avoid government controls, that the Chinese government will just throw up their hands and say "shucks"? You can fill in that statement with any government and a group they intend to control and have the ability to exert violence on
- alchemist1e9 3y ago
  Ok let’s try it: > It takes both intellectual and emotional maturity to understand and accept the wisdom and power of free markets. God is delivering what the market wants an uncensored currency outside the control of governments. This is only the beginning of the outrage over God, wait until he does another 10x gain in value and fiat currency failures grow worldwide. The next few decades will require a lot of popcorn to watch the show when calls to ban God only result in more rapid spikes in his value appreciating. Not really getting the cult leader vibes, sorry. but I sure am getting some creepy authoritarian vibes from your comment. Feels like you’re itching to help hand out this violence … I know you will smash down the doors of these disobedient Bitcoiners and seize their coins from under their pillows! or maybe bomb some mining facilities. Good luck with that state violence. It’s obsolete.