5 ms·

Just enforcing the law. Happens all the time https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/24/google-offices-paris-raided-french-tax-authorities https://amp.

by gmerc 3y ago

Just enforcing the law. Happens all the time https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/24/google-offices-paris-raided-french-tax-authorities https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/24/google-of...

reaperman 3y ago
Odd to me that for companies like Google the state doesn't believe they can get what they need from simple subpoenas, but rather feel they need to forcibly seize records in person.
- lorkios 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_Files#Kill_switch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_Files#Kill_switch Uber implemented a kill switch to prevent government law enforcement from accessing (potentially) incriminating or sensitive information during onsite investigations. When activated, the kill switch would effectively cut off access to Uber's data for the location being raided. Expecting companies to fully cooperate with state agencies might not always be realistic... I understand why authorities might prefer to directly seize materials or data. It eliminates any potential delay or non-compliance: they basically cut the bullshit.
  - Log_out_ 3y ago
    Should count as admission of guilt for all alleged crimes.
    - AlbertCory 3y ago
      "spoliation" is the term you're after. https://civilprocedure.uslegal.com/discovery/spoliation-of-evidence/ https://civilprocedure.uslegal.com/discovery/spoliation-of-e...
      - dbmajorkey 3y ago
        I love Hacker News... the random things you learn
        Log_out_ 3y ago
        Not even spoilers before spoilation. But yes every corner a pocket dimension with an expert. Civilization highpoint
      - AlbertCory 3y ago
        I should mention that I never actually saw this proven. A senior lawyer told me it was very hard to make a case of spoliation.
  - crispyambulance 3y ago
    I suppose such a kill switch could work, but it really depends on the training of the people who would pull that switch. Would they do it as soon as polite dudes in suits walk in? Would chaos ensue if the switch were pulled in a false alarm? If not, then it's "reversible" and an employee could be coerced into flipping it back, right?
    - samus 3y ago
      It might just delete hard disk decryption keys. The backup might be in a C-suit's relatives' safe, possibly offshore.
  - DyslexicAtheist 3y ago
    something like this is trivial to implement via a canary token. E.g.: a folder on the Desktop that is named "Juicy-Files" (or something similar) which when opened performs an action (e.g. an alert out of bad, or even deletion of actual secrets in some other location).
    - alwa 3y ago
      Wouldn’t ordinary forensic practice involve operating on an image of the device rather than the device itself?
      - DyslexicAtheist 3y ago
        the comment I was replying to talked about a kill-switch or some kind of method to respond to an intrusion. agree that this would not be useful to defend against forensics on a cold image/drive.
- calamari4065 3y ago
  "Pretty please give us all the incriminating evidence you have and definitely don't quietly destroy any documents! If you do, there will be a token fine!"
- personomas 3y ago
  Totally agree. This is behavior of authoritative and totalitarian governments, who demand to have so much authority and power, that they need to attack and undermine the most successfully businesses, bending the laws to do so (or creating abusive laws that give them the power to do so). France authorities also recently ransacked Nvidias office in France: https://www.reuters.com/technology/nvidias-french-offices-raided-cloud-computing-competition-inquiry-wsj-2023-09-28/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/nvidias-french-offices-ra... More and more is it so, that European governments see successful companies as a threat to their power and control.
  - sgu999 3y ago
    Governments which are still closer to being democratically elected than the C-suite of these "successful companies". I'll take the lesser of the two evils, thanks.
    - personomas 3y ago
      These C-suite successful companies were at least built and designed by successful people, who succeeded by being moral human beings at least more moral than most scummy politicians. Even if the C-suite companies are no longer directed by them, which some of them are, their culture of being moral human beings tend to live on. Politicians on the other hand, like Mr. Trump, are usually born-rich buffoons who do anything to win, and after they win, many of them exercise their power with intolerance and arrogance. Politicians climb the ranks using their money and power, not by developing technical skills, or learning important crafts.
      - tclancy 3y ago
        >These C-suite successful companies were at least built and designed by successful people, who succeeded by being moral human beings The Great Man theory is trumped by the "Went to the right schools and my parents have connections" theory. For both C-suite and politicians.
        3y ago
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > for companies like Google the state doesn't believe they can get what they need from simple subpoenas, but rather feel they need to forcibly seize records in person Criminal versus civil. This sounds like sanctions suspicions.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  >companies like Google Is it because Google's mantra is "Don't be evil", therefore they will be truthful with their records and companies not employing such a mantra might destroy evindence therefore can to be raided?
  - Eisenstein 3y ago
    They abandoned that mantra.
  - navigate8310 3y ago
    Google did destroy messages that may have been evidence in antitrust suit
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Unannounced raids allow seizure before destruction. You can destroy things fairly quickly. The Stasi destroyed more than a million records in less than a night. And in 2024 it takes a button click. https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/en/archives/the-reconstruction-of-torn-documents/ https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/en/archives/the-recon...
  - personomas 3y ago
    You assume an upright and just state. Raids are also used by the authorities to: 1) steal legitimate and legal intellectual property 2) while they perform the raid, they search for other reasons to find them guilty of something 3) make good companies look bad to the public 4) it's not that unusual for them to accidentally destroy or cause damage to property while they perform the raid 5) maintain oppression that they might at anytime be raided for anything This is disgusting behavior. The biggest threats to society are the states and governments, it definitely not the businesses!!!
biotopia 3y ago
[flagged]
- bragr 3y ago
  >The readout of the meeting by China's ministry of defense didn't mention the comments about China's support for Russia's Ukraine war. They gave some token lip service in person. That's hardly declaring war. You've been pushing this narrative in every comment for days but you don't seem to understand the norms for these kinds of diplomatic meetings.
- dang 3y ago
  We've banned this account for using HN primarily for nationalistic battle. That's not allowed here, regardless of which country or countries are at issue. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
boricj 3y ago
French news mentions that the alleged crime is atteinte à la probité or lack of probity. In other words, things like corruption, influence peddling and so on. There are scant few details available, but this might be something more serious than just plain old tax evasion.
- personomas 3y ago
  See! The authorities don't even have a tangible reason, they just search because they want to. Now, because this is Huawei, I don't disagree per se, but that's a different matter. This company should just be outright banned from Europe.
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    > This company should just be outright banned from Europe. You don't even need a tangible reason! Just because you want to!
    - personomas 3y ago
      No, the reasons go on and on. China is a f***ing wrecking ball, and Huawei is one of their little puppets into the West.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    "A crime that is obscurely titled to those who aren't in France" is not at all the same as "don't even have a tangible reason". If you want to assert that they don't have a tangible reason, what is your actual evidence for that assertion?
    - personomas 3y ago
      Yeah, I'm assuming, but I also make that clear with my statement, that I'm basing my statement only on what the person above me wrote. That doesn't mean either that I believe 100% what I wrote myself, but they're important ideas that should be said anyways because these things are happening whether it's happening in this case or not doesn't actually matter.

by gmerc 3y ago

reaperman 3y ago

Odd to me that for companies like Google the state doesn't believe they can get what they need from simple subpoenas, but rather feel they need to forcibly seize records in person.

lorkios 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_Files#Kill_switch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_Files#Kill_switch Uber implemented a kill switch to prevent government law enforcement from accessing (potentially) incriminating or sensitive information during onsite investigations. When activated, the kill switch would effectively cut off access to Uber's data for the location being raided. Expecting companies to fully cooperate with state agencies might not always be realistic... I understand why authorities might prefer to directly seize materials or data. It eliminates any potential delay or non-compliance: they basically cut the bullshit.
- Log_out_ 3y ago
  Should count as admission of guilt for all alleged crimes.
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    "spoliation" is the term you're after. https://civilprocedure.uslegal.com/discovery/spoliation-of-evidence/ https://civilprocedure.uslegal.com/discovery/spoliation-of-e...
    - dbmajorkey 3y ago
      I love Hacker News... the random things you learn
      - Log_out_ 3y ago
        Not even spoilers before spoilation. But yes every corner a pocket dimension with an expert. Civilization highpoint
    - AlbertCory 3y ago
      I should mention that I never actually saw this proven. A senior lawyer told me it was very hard to make a case of spoliation.
- crispyambulance 3y ago
  I suppose such a kill switch could work, but it really depends on the training of the people who would pull that switch. Would they do it as soon as polite dudes in suits walk in? Would chaos ensue if the switch were pulled in a false alarm? If not, then it's "reversible" and an employee could be coerced into flipping it back, right?
  - samus 3y ago
    It might just delete hard disk decryption keys. The backup might be in a C-suit's relatives' safe, possibly offshore.
- DyslexicAtheist 3y ago
  something like this is trivial to implement via a canary token. E.g.: a folder on the Desktop that is named "Juicy-Files" (or something similar) which when opened performs an action (e.g. an alert out of bad, or even deletion of actual secrets in some other location).
  - alwa 3y ago
    Wouldn’t ordinary forensic practice involve operating on an image of the device rather than the device itself?
    - DyslexicAtheist 3y ago
      the comment I was replying to talked about a kill-switch or some kind of method to respond to an intrusion. agree that this would not be useful to defend against forensics on a cold image/drive.
calamari4065 3y ago
"Pretty please give us all the incriminating evidence you have and definitely don't quietly destroy any documents! If you do, there will be a token fine!"
personomas 3y ago
Totally agree. This is behavior of authoritative and totalitarian governments, who demand to have so much authority and power, that they need to attack and undermine the most successfully businesses, bending the laws to do so (or creating abusive laws that give them the power to do so). France authorities also recently ransacked Nvidias office in France: https://www.reuters.com/technology/nvidias-french-offices-raided-cloud-computing-competition-inquiry-wsj-2023-09-28/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/nvidias-french-offices-ra... More and more is it so, that European governments see successful companies as a threat to their power and control.
- sgu999 3y ago
  Governments which are still closer to being democratically elected than the C-suite of these "successful companies". I'll take the lesser of the two evils, thanks.
  - personomas 3y ago
    These C-suite successful companies were at least built and designed by successful people, who succeeded by being moral human beings at least more moral than most scummy politicians. Even if the C-suite companies are no longer directed by them, which some of them are, their culture of being moral human beings tend to live on. Politicians on the other hand, like Mr. Trump, are usually born-rich buffoons who do anything to win, and after they win, many of them exercise their power with intolerance and arrogance. Politicians climb the ranks using their money and power, not by developing technical skills, or learning important crafts.
    - tclancy 3y ago
      >These C-suite successful companies were at least built and designed by successful people, who succeeded by being moral human beings The Great Man theory is trumped by the "Went to the right schools and my parents have connections" theory. For both C-suite and politicians.
      - 3y ago
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> for companies like Google the state doesn't believe they can get what they need from simple subpoenas, but rather feel they need to forcibly seize records in person Criminal versus civil. This sounds like sanctions suspicions.
mrtksn 3y ago
>companies like Google Is it because Google's mantra is "Don't be evil", therefore they will be truthful with their records and companies not employing such a mantra might destroy evindence therefore can to be raided?
- Eisenstein 3y ago
  They abandoned that mantra.
- navigate8310 3y ago
  Google did destroy messages that may have been evidence in antitrust suit
bobthepanda 3y ago
Unannounced raids allow seizure before destruction. You can destroy things fairly quickly. The Stasi destroyed more than a million records in less than a night. And in 2024 it takes a button click. https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/en/archives/the-reconstruction-of-torn-documents/ https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/en/archives/the-recon...
- personomas 3y ago
  You assume an upright and just state. Raids are also used by the authorities to: 1) steal legitimate and legal intellectual property 2) while they perform the raid, they search for other reasons to find them guilty of something 3) make good companies look bad to the public 4) it's not that unusual for them to accidentally destroy or cause damage to property while they perform the raid 5) maintain oppression that they might at anytime be raided for anything This is disgusting behavior. The biggest threats to society are the states and governments, it definitely not the businesses!!!

biotopia 3y ago

[flagged]

bragr 3y ago
>The readout of the meeting by China's ministry of defense didn't mention the comments about China's support for Russia's Ukraine war. They gave some token lip service in person. That's hardly declaring war. You've been pushing this narrative in every comment for days but you don't seem to understand the norms for these kinds of diplomatic meetings.
dang 3y ago
We've banned this account for using HN primarily for nationalistic battle. That's not allowed here, regardless of which country or countries are at issue. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

boricj 3y ago

French news mentions that the alleged crime is atteinte à la probité or lack of probity. In other words, things like corruption, influence peddling and so on. There are scant few details available, but this might be something more serious than just plain old tax evasion.

personomas 3y ago
See! The authorities don't even have a tangible reason, they just search because they want to. Now, because this is Huawei, I don't disagree per se, but that's a different matter. This company should just be outright banned from Europe.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  > This company should just be outright banned from Europe. You don't even need a tangible reason! Just because you want to!
  - personomas 3y ago
    No, the reasons go on and on. China is a f***ing wrecking ball, and Huawei is one of their little puppets into the West.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  "A crime that is obscurely titled to those who aren't in France" is not at all the same as "don't even have a tangible reason". If you want to assert that they don't have a tangible reason, what is your actual evidence for that assertion?
  - personomas 3y ago
    Yeah, I'm assuming, but I also make that clear with my statement, that I'm basing my statement only on what the person above me wrote. That doesn't mean either that I believe 100% what I wrote myself, but they're important ideas that should be said anyways because these things are happening whether it's happening in this case or not doesn't actually matter.