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Fedora Atomic Desktops

INTPenis 3y ago
Good, they changed the name of Sericea just as I learned how to spell it. :D I started using Silverblue in October 2022 and now I've been using Sericea for the past 2 months. Long story short, immutable is the future of Linux.
- exe34 3y ago
  > immutable is the future of Linux Or indeed, the past. Happy nixos user since ~2016 here.
  - cma256 3y ago
    I am also a nixos enjoyer but I have mixed feelings around the fact that I still don't really understand the configuration language. I'm happy in the sense that its simple enough that I can install programs and do all the other usual desktop stuff with minimal knowledge. But I'm unhappy in the sense that when I started with nixos I wanted to replace docker and docker-compose. I still haven't accomplished that. But all-in-all I'm very happy with Nixos for desktop use. No crashes, no bugs. Its the reason I was able to permanently drop Windows.
    - tombert 3y ago
      I know they're kind of experimental still, but I have personally found Nix Flakes a lot more fun to work with, at least once I sat down and actually learned about them. I feel the interface is more consistent, and it gives me the "replacing docker" experience with the ability to make devshells and ephemeral builds. Granted, I'm not running Nixos on my main laptop, because I have had a hell of a time getting me 2020 Macbook to get Linux running stably, but I do use Nix as my sole package manager within MacOS, and I do run NixOS on my server and use Flakes heavily there.
    - Cu3PO42 3y ago
      I went down the rabbit hole and now feel comfortable claiming I do understand both the programming language and the NixOS module system, which is effectively an embedded DSL, as well as a decent chunk of the nixpkgs conventions. And it certainly is a great feeling, but I'm not yet sure it's really "worth it". Of course the effect is great, but it was also an enormous amount of work to get there.
    - darthrupert 3y ago
      Generally speaking, you should never learn a language. You should use a language and let learning happen.
  - throwaway8481 3y ago
    I liked Nix, because it worked very well to reproduce "the same system" every time. However, it became unmanageable and a huge time sink to constantly remake how I scripted together my nix flakes per the current/modern way of doing that. And then finding a repository of how someone else managed this on Github and rewriting my configuration again. Nix ultimately made me feel like I was running Gentoo. Excellent build system, but I could not invest the time in learning ebuilds, and I could not invest the time in using Nix's language to manage its packages. It was just a huge time sink and baggage to maintain. rpm-ostree is lowering the barrier to entry greatly to produce layered [open container] images that we can rebase off of. That is the future among all this atomic stuff. It would be entirely possible to /someday/ build a system with the nix toolset, then commit the image through rpm-ostree, and have others rebase from it. Best of both. In the future, with immutable systems, it probably also means being able to have those very robust update systems in place like Chromebooks where you update and switch to partition B with the new image, while having the fallback on partition A. It would also probably make it easier to verify and sign these images for secure boot purposes so then enabling secure boot on Linux becomes easier/convenient, and the secure default. I still think the Nix language is yet another language I don't see the value in. I'm not learning this, or becoming comfortable in this language, or convincing myself it's a comfortable language to use ...just to maintain my 2-3 laptops when I don't use Nix anywhere else. Time sink. But a very solid system. PS: I want them to layer everything on Fedora CoreOS. Make CoreOS the secure thin base, then create all these atomic "Spins" as a derivation of CoreOS.
    - exe34 3y ago
      I never got around to the flakes thing - if something isn't already in the repos nowadays, I lose interest quite quickly. It's really helped with just getting on with life instead of futzing around with settings. What does work, is rock solid.
    - Cu3PO42 3y ago
      I have also invested a hugely disproportionate amount of time in writing my Nix config. However, that is only because I found it fun to massively over-engineer everything and wanted to make my work easily usable for others. That said, I could have gotten away with significantly less and I'm really not sure what you're referring to with having to remake your Flake. I'm not aware that the output schema changed over the last years. Could you provide an example of what caused you to rewrite your configuration? I'm not doubting your experience, the documentation situation is not great and I could absolutely see someone getting stuck in a situation where they felt they needed to start over. I'd just like to know what the community could do to avoid these pitfalls.
  - hollerith 3y ago
    And every time your libc needs to be updated, almost every other package you have installed must be updated at the same time.
    - exe34 3y ago
      And if there's the slightest issue with the update, you can just reboot into the previous generation and continue working until you have time to figure it out later, or just wait until it's fixed!
      - hollerith 3y ago
        Fedora atomic desktops have that property, too, without the wasteful property I just described.
        exe34 3y ago
        Yes, there is a garbage collector to get rid of the old stuff you don't need anymore!
        hollerith 3y ago
        The existence of the garbage collector does not negate the wastefulness of updating every package on the system just because the hash of the C library has changed: even if all the old versions of the packages get garbage collected soon enough, it still wastes network and storage bandwidth to download all the new packages into /nix/store/. NixOS has some good ideas, but also some seemingly boneheaded or impractical ones.
        exe34 3y ago
        This is what allows you to have multiple versions of something and all its dependencies installed and not conflict with each other!
        3y ago
- deleted 3y ago
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- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
  > Long story short, immutable is the future of Linux. If I didn't want my computer to change I would simply not turn it on!
hospitalJail 3y ago
If anyone isnt aware, Fedora is currently the GOAT OS. Don't knock it until you try it. Everything just works, and it works like the Platonic form of a desktop should. A Fedora Cinnamon Atomic would be a wet dream for me. I'm surprised that wasnt prioritized. Budgie Desktop looks interesting.
- Arisaka1 3y ago
  I tried getting to Fedora but the package manager was slower even to deb, the hardware video acceleration in browsers required me to juggle drivers from fusion due to licensing problems, and I use AMD which I would expect to not have issues.
  - tapoxi 3y ago
    The package manager is a little slower but `dnf history` is a lifechanger. It's so easy to list the history of all transactions and undo a specific one. There are huge performance improvements coming in DNF5, scheduled for Fedora 41 (this fall).
    - walteweiss 3y ago
      Where can I read about it?
    - frankjr 3y ago
      Is there a downside to just installing the dnf5 package right now? I see it's available for 38+.
      - dralley 3y ago
        It's not considered polished enough to make the default. Some functionality isn't reimplemented yet. It's difficult to transition backwards once you've switched.
  - oaththrowaway 3y ago
    Try using the flatpak version of browsers. Acceleration should work ootb
sodality2 3y ago
Ugh, the Sway/Kinoite Atomic spin is so tempting for me as a regular Fedora user. Two weeks ago, a kernel update borked my laptop, and for some reason it deleted the older versions, so I was forced to live boot, chroot, and install a beta kernel. A few days ago, my desktop stopped booting - something to do with Nvidia drivers, and older kernels don't help. I don't have the time to try and fix it any time soon. But, there was definitely pains with this kind of desktop when I tried it last time. Regular old software I want to install via dnf is painful to install - you have to layer it on top of the base image, and then that makes it "nonstandard" basically from then on. I know they push you toward flatpaks, but the vast majority of apps I use don't have it (or I don't prefer using the Flatpak version). Can anyone give a more recent perspective? It's been about two years - I probably used Fedora Atomic 35/36.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  I use Bazzite. It includes nix and fleek, so you can easily install packages from the massive nixos ecosystem. I then add JetPack's devbox which is another nix porcelain and use it with direnv to install custom packages for each of my projects. And I have a few distrobox's (toolbox on generic Silverblue) to do things like build Debian packages.
  - Santosh83 3y ago
    Bazzite's sibling Bluefin is specifically meant for developers (the bluefin-dx image) and standard daily driver. Bazzite is targeted more towards gaming and Steam handheld although you can use it as a desktop too. https://projectbluefin.io/ https://projectbluefin.io/
    - Daegalus 3y ago
      I tried Bluefin and it's still early days and such. Also Bluefin has gaming images, so it seems it's weirdly trying to compete with Bazzite. Also Bazzite has an issue open to make `-dx` images. It seems both are trying to do it all with a different main focus. Bazzite is Gaming but can do other stuff just as well. Bluefin is Dev but can do others. I personally find Bazzite more diverse and capable.
bsimpson 3y ago
I know that Silverblue and Kinoite are more established, but I would have liked to see a consistent rebrand. "Fedora GNOME Atomic" is a better name for the same reasons that "Fedora Sway Atomic" is.
- Andrex 3y ago
  It would be called "Fedora Workstation Atomic" unless they wanted to rename the Workstation branding too. Keeping Silverblue makes sense to me with that in mind. I feel like Fedora Kinoite should be renamed though. The one "halo" distro can use a distinct name but everything else should follow the new pattern IMO.
  - piaste 3y ago
    Yeah, I've been running Kinoite since it came out and I agree. The name is still very obscure, I'd be happier to just tell people "I run Fedora KDE Atomic".
  - curt15 3y ago
    Silverblue is itself a rebranding of "Fedora Atomic Workstation"
oaththrowaway 3y ago
I never tried Fedora before, but a few weeks ago Bluefin got mentioned here and I went down a hole reading about Universal Blue and ended up making my own spin. Love it. Immutable is incredible
tmountain 3y ago
I just got into Silverblue (also love Nix), and I really feel that it's the way Linux "should be". I say this as a Linux user since 1999. If you haven't checked it out, imagine that the base (read-only) operating system (drivers, etc) changes in a very controlled and atomic fashion while all your userland stuff is updated via Flatpak (or Distrobox, etc). The odds of breaking your system are virtually zero, and everything works out of the box. It's amazing.
- vundercind 3y ago
  This is similar to the experience (if not so similar on the implementation side) of running MacOS with Homebrew or Macports: the stuff you directly use stays up-to-date, but the base system is separate so it’s nigh-impossible to mess anything important up just by updating your user-facing packages. You also don’t have to choose between stable-but-old and unstable-and-new—the base OS (including gui!) is stable, the stuff you use can be new, because the two are barely coupled at all. It’s a lot closer to the right way to manage this stuff, for desktop systems, than traditional Linux package management approaches. That approach is painful to go back to, after getting used to this. I’ll have to give this a try next time I poke my head into Linux-land.
- dusanh 3y ago
  Does Silverblue have the same plaintext system configuration capabilities like NixOS?
Cu3PO42 3y ago
I knew what Silverblue was and was decently certain about Kinoite, but had heard about neither Onyx nor Sericea. I think the rebranding is a smart move here for both brand recognition and searchability. I might have gone a step further and renamed the Gnome and KDE versions as well. Beyond the naming change, I'm really excited about those projects. I strongly belive that atomicity is the way to go and believe that eventually many distributions will evolve in that direction. Right now I think the tradeoffs are already worth it, but there may be a ways to go before I'd recommend it as the default for new users. (Even if they might in particular profit from easy error recovery.) EDIT: I want to add that the easy error recoverability that atomicity provides isn't just important for errors upstream that break one of your upgrades, it also enables much more experimentation. I have learned a lot more Linux systems because I was able to fearlessly tinker with many integral parts that I would never have touched in a traditional system for fear of having to reinstall. After all, if I broke it, all I had to to was to reboot to unbreak it!
torstenvl 3y ago
I like the idea of atomic base systems; it's very BSD-like. I may have to give this a try.
- walteweiss 3y ago
  Is BSD this way? I never used it, but I haven’t read about it either.
  - torstenvl 3y ago
    Yes, the base system is a cohesive whole, not a set of packages. You don't update the kernel separately from, say, the core user land, the way you'd update linux-kernel and binutils as separate packages on a linux distribution. BSD doesn't use the term "atomic" but as near as I can tell it's the same idea.
bsimpson 3y ago
If you're not familiar, the Atomic project is really interesting. Its focus is stability and reproducibility, trying to solve the fragility that can happen when the default way to use software in Linux is `sudo apt-get install`. There's a community offshoot called Universal Blue (after the original Atomic image Silverblue). It uses the standards set for containerization to make userland configuration reproducible as well. There's a manifest (Containerfile) that enumerates all the modifications, which means an upgrade is bump the version of the base image and replay all the modifications from the manifest. It's also meant to limit `sudo` usage, so you're not in the habit of giving root to random software you downloaded from the internet. Their most famous image is Bazzite, which will replicate the SteamOS experience on generic hardware. They also have Bluefin for software developers. I haven't used it myself, but I find the concept fascinating. I expect Jorge and Kyle from that project will find their way to these comments.
- Daegalus 3y ago
  I will say, I prefer Bazzite for dev too. In general Project Bluefin is newer, but seems to be trying to get into gaming too. Likewise, Bazzite is considering developer images also. So I might switch to those. But it's so easy to switch. I currently use Bazzite + Nix + HomeManager + Flatpaks and it has been fantastic. I only layer Tailscale and a few minor things that need be system level to operate right.
  - FireInsight 3y ago
    Bluefin is actually older, it's the base that kickstarted the whole development of Universal Blue. They are pretty much as mature, too. Bazzite is more gaming oriented, Bluefin more general purpose. Bazzite is way more popular since gaming attracts people.
- dsr_ 3y ago
  > trying to solve the fragility that can happen when the default way to use software in Linux is `sudo apt-get install` What fragility is that? Is it something outlined in https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian ?
kaylynb 3y ago
I really like Silverblue and run it on a couple of secondary machines (like in my workshop), but it’s still rough for anything off the beaten path. The largest pain points for me: - Any kernel modules. I know Ublue has images but I wish Red Hat would just have an official solution that doesn’t require hacky RPMs and such. - Kernel cmdline args or any initramfs changes: can’t package in image and need to be applied manually. Maybe it’s possible to build a custom initramfs to distribute? - Secure boot and enrolling moks is very annoying. My current workstation just uses sbctl to sign a UKI against custom keys and everything “just works”. This is part of why kernel modules are a pain in Silverblue too. If you don’t care about kernel modules with secure boot it’s quite nice though. Practically zero maintenance.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  After working with these types of systems, I'm convinced we need a new type of package manager that works with overlays and merges package databases somehow. That way you can update the underlying image (at your own peril, maybe) and have the overlay package manager see the new versions. Constantly rebuilding everything when the underlying changes is a waste.
  - colordrops 3y ago
    Nix?
    - candiddevmike 3y ago
      AFAIK Nix wouldn't solve this as it has the same issue (/nix/var/nix/db). Here's a scenario to better illustrate: I'm using systemd nspawn with my host root as a lowerdir overlay. In this container I install some packages not present on the host. The overlay upperdir now includes the new packages and the new package database. I upgrade my host, and now the nspawn package database is wildly out of date because overlay doesn't track line-level file changes. OverlayFS is really handy but it causes a ton of churn from rebuilding everything.
- jwells89 3y ago
onlytheonly 3y ago
[dead]
nycticorax 3y ago
So can anyone help me understand why RedHat/Fedora has a containerized solution for desktop apps (flatpak), but nothing like that for CLI apps? It seems... odd.
- Comma2976 3y ago
  I believe toolbx is supposed to fill that gap, if not normal containers
- Daegalus 3y ago
  Toolbx, Distrobix, Nix are supposed to fill that usecase.
- dralley 3y ago
  Because it was already considered a solved problem. You can use standard containers for that sort of thing, so why reinvent that wheel.
colordrops 3y ago
WTF is a "spin"
- thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
  A Fedora distro with a different desktop (or sometimes a specialized purpose): https://fedoraproject.org/spins/ https://fedoraproject.org/spins/
smm11 3y ago
Don't use immutable distros on machines you might need for bootable disc or bootable thumb-drive use in the future. Found that out the hard way.
- Santosh83 3y ago
  What's the catch?
- lproven 3y ago
  > need for bootable disc or bootable thumb-drive use What does this mean?
dabber21 3y ago
I'm using Silverblue for 2 years now it is very nice to consume things, but it gets tedious when you want to some development, so I really just use it to play Steam games (flatpak), watch videos and browse the internet. never had any issues so far for those use cases its definitely something I'd install for my parents
- FireInsight 3y ago
  I'm having a blast doing dev on Silverblue! I've got Nix and Devbox installed for reproducible per-project shell environments with just the right packages, which feels really reliable. I also have a distrobox with some general-purpose dev-related packages incase I just need to quickly compile something. Overall a better experience than installing all devtools systemwide IMO.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - dabber21 3y ago
    yes, devbox is definitely something I will try!
- piaste 3y ago
  All my dev stuff, editors included, is in a Debian distrobox - since that's usually well supported by tooling, but you could also go with Ubuntu for even better support and/or Nix for more obscure packages. GUI applications work fine from a distrobox and it makes the integration very painless (eg. VSCodium extensions). You can export them with a built-in command and it will even create a regular desktop entry for them.
butz 3y ago
Why not have single generic "Atomic" version and provide desktop environment as selection during installation? Like Debian does. Or is DE so tightly coupled into images, that it cannot be replaced?
- Santosh83 3y ago
  Fedora immutable distros are image based, so yes, the base system is a pre-made unit, over which you can layer minor packages but not something as extensive as an alternative DE. Hence so many spins, as well as separate versions for stuff like Nvidia cards, Asus machines and so on.
discardedrefuse 3y ago
Questions for Silverblue / Atomic Users: I tried Silverblue a couple years ago and found myself rpm-ostree layering some basic tools like Fish shell and Mosh. Is layering still the preferred method for installing these types of tools or do you have "generic" container (made with toolbox/distrobox) that you jump into for generic shell work in like ssh'ing around and file management? Also, how do you handle things like custom services? For example, Nebula overlay network doesn't really have an installer. Its just a single binary. I manually put that in /usr/local/bin, put the configs in /etc/nebula, chmod those configs to hide them, update selinux, and create a service file for it. How would I do that in an immutable system?
- jcastro 3y ago
  `/usr/local` is writeable so no change there, that should work fine. I keep a container as my "day to day" linux and just have my terminal autolaunch into mine. You can use any distro's container for this so it's personal preference. I'm using Prompt, it's a new terminal designed to make the toolbox/distrobox flow much nicer: https://gitlab.gnome.org/chergert/prompt https://gitlab.gnome.org/chergert/prompt It's still relatively new so it isn't on flathub yet but it makes everything mostly seamless.
  - discardedrefuse 3y ago
    Good to know. Thanks for the info! I'll be keeping on eye on Prompt.
  - curt15 3y ago
    How do you deal with the lack of systemd in the container? Where do you put software that ship systemd unit files?
    - jcastro 3y ago
      I use containerized versions of things, ubuntu and chainguard images mostly. You can always create containers with init if that's how you want to do that though. Some distros publish images that come that way: https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox/blob/main/docs/useful_tips.md#using-init-system-inside-a-distrobox https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox/blob/main/docs/useful_...
latentcall 3y ago
I use Fedora KDE as my laptop distro and have been interested in Silverblue/immutable versions. However I am not a developer so I’m not sure if it would offer any real benefit to my use case. Mostly use my laptop for web browsing and file transfers to my NAS. I’ve seen people say that immutable is the future of Linux, can someone explain that if they can? Does that mean one day all versions of Fedora will be immutable? Is it a security benefit?
- byproxy 3y ago
  In my limited experience, I'd say the immutable spins are even better for non-developers. Getting developer tooling going in Silverblue was enough of a hassle for me to disregard it, for the time being.
  - sohkamyung 3y ago
    I have a SDK that I need to git clone from a repository, and then run a script file from the SDK to fetch the actual tools for my build environment. Am I right in saying that kind of development environment would be hard to use and maintain in Silverblue?

Good, they changed the name of Sericea just as I learned how to spell it. :D I started using Silverblue in October 2022 and now I've been using Sericea for the past 2 months. Long story short, immutable is the future of Linux.

exe34 3y ago
> immutable is the future of Linux Or indeed, the past. Happy nixos user since ~2016 here.
- cma256 3y ago
  I am also a nixos enjoyer but I have mixed feelings around the fact that I still don't really understand the configuration language. I'm happy in the sense that its simple enough that I can install programs and do all the other usual desktop stuff with minimal knowledge. But I'm unhappy in the sense that when I started with nixos I wanted to replace docker and docker-compose. I still haven't accomplished that. But all-in-all I'm very happy with Nixos for desktop use. No crashes, no bugs. Its the reason I was able to permanently drop Windows.
  - tombert 3y ago
    I know they're kind of experimental still, but I have personally found Nix Flakes a lot more fun to work with, at least once I sat down and actually learned about them. I feel the interface is more consistent, and it gives me the "replacing docker" experience with the ability to make devshells and ephemeral builds. Granted, I'm not running Nixos on my main laptop, because I have had a hell of a time getting me 2020 Macbook to get Linux running stably, but I do use Nix as my sole package manager within MacOS, and I do run NixOS on my server and use Flakes heavily there.
  - Cu3PO42 3y ago
    I went down the rabbit hole and now feel comfortable claiming I do understand both the programming language and the NixOS module system, which is effectively an embedded DSL, as well as a decent chunk of the nixpkgs conventions. And it certainly is a great feeling, but I'm not yet sure it's really "worth it". Of course the effect is great, but it was also an enormous amount of work to get there.
  - darthrupert 3y ago
    Generally speaking, you should never learn a language. You should use a language and let learning happen.
- throwaway8481 3y ago
  I liked Nix, because it worked very well to reproduce "the same system" every time. However, it became unmanageable and a huge time sink to constantly remake how I scripted together my nix flakes per the current/modern way of doing that. And then finding a repository of how someone else managed this on Github and rewriting my configuration again. Nix ultimately made me feel like I was running Gentoo. Excellent build system, but I could not invest the time in learning ebuilds, and I could not invest the time in using Nix's language to manage its packages. It was just a huge time sink and baggage to maintain. rpm-ostree is lowering the barrier to entry greatly to produce layered [open container] images that we can rebase off of. That is the future among all this atomic stuff. It would be entirely possible to /someday/ build a system with the nix toolset, then commit the image through rpm-ostree, and have others rebase from it. Best of both. In the future, with immutable systems, it probably also means being able to have those very robust update systems in place like Chromebooks where you update and switch to partition B with the new image, while having the fallback on partition A. It would also probably make it easier to verify and sign these images for secure boot purposes so then enabling secure boot on Linux becomes easier/convenient, and the secure default. I still think the Nix language is yet another language I don't see the value in. I'm not learning this, or becoming comfortable in this language, or convincing myself it's a comfortable language to use ...just to maintain my 2-3 laptops when I don't use Nix anywhere else. Time sink. But a very solid system. PS: I want them to layer everything on Fedora CoreOS. Make CoreOS the secure thin base, then create all these atomic "Spins" as a derivation of CoreOS.
  - exe34 3y ago
    I never got around to the flakes thing - if something isn't already in the repos nowadays, I lose interest quite quickly. It's really helped with just getting on with life instead of futzing around with settings. What does work, is rock solid.
  - Cu3PO42 3y ago
    I have also invested a hugely disproportionate amount of time in writing my Nix config. However, that is only because I found it fun to massively over-engineer everything and wanted to make my work easily usable for others. That said, I could have gotten away with significantly less and I'm really not sure what you're referring to with having to remake your Flake. I'm not aware that the output schema changed over the last years. Could you provide an example of what caused you to rewrite your configuration? I'm not doubting your experience, the documentation situation is not great and I could absolutely see someone getting stuck in a situation where they felt they needed to start over. I'd just like to know what the community could do to avoid these pitfalls.
- hollerith 3y ago
  And every time your libc needs to be updated, almost every other package you have installed must be updated at the same time.
  - exe34 3y ago
    And if there's the slightest issue with the update, you can just reboot into the previous generation and continue working until you have time to figure it out later, or just wait until it's fixed!
    - hollerith 3y ago
      Fedora atomic desktops have that property, too, without the wasteful property I just described.
      - exe34 3y ago
        Yes, there is a garbage collector to get rid of the old stuff you don't need anymore!
        hollerith 3y ago
        The existence of the garbage collector does not negate the wastefulness of updating every package on the system just because the hash of the C library has changed: even if all the old versions of the packages get garbage collected soon enough, it still wastes network and storage bandwidth to download all the new packages into /nix/store/. NixOS has some good ideas, but also some seemingly boneheaded or impractical ones.
        exe34 3y ago
        This is what allows you to have multiple versions of something and all its dependencies installed and not conflict with each other!
        3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
> Long story short, immutable is the future of Linux. If I didn't want my computer to change I would simply not turn it on!

hospitalJail 3y ago

If anyone isnt aware, Fedora is currently the GOAT OS. Don't knock it until you try it. Everything just works, and it works like the Platonic form of a desktop should. A Fedora Cinnamon Atomic would be a wet dream for me. I'm surprised that wasnt prioritized. Budgie Desktop looks interesting.

Arisaka1 3y ago
I tried getting to Fedora but the package manager was slower even to deb, the hardware video acceleration in browsers required me to juggle drivers from fusion due to licensing problems, and I use AMD which I would expect to not have issues.
- tapoxi 3y ago
  The package manager is a little slower but `dnf history` is a lifechanger. It's so easy to list the history of all transactions and undo a specific one. There are huge performance improvements coming in DNF5, scheduled for Fedora 41 (this fall).
  - walteweiss 3y ago
    Where can I read about it?
  - frankjr 3y ago
    Is there a downside to just installing the dnf5 package right now? I see it's available for 38+.
    - dralley 3y ago
      It's not considered polished enough to make the default. Some functionality isn't reimplemented yet. It's difficult to transition backwards once you've switched.
- oaththrowaway 3y ago
  Try using the flatpak version of browsers. Acceleration should work ootb

sodality2 3y ago

Ugh, the Sway/Kinoite Atomic spin is so tempting for me as a regular Fedora user. Two weeks ago, a kernel update borked my laptop, and for some reason it deleted the older versions, so I was forced to live boot, chroot, and install a beta kernel. A few days ago, my desktop stopped booting - something to do with Nvidia drivers, and older kernels don't help. I don't have the time to try and fix it any time soon. But, there was definitely pains with this kind of desktop when I tried it last time. Regular old software I want to install via dnf is painful to install - you have to layer it on top of the base image, and then that makes it "nonstandard" basically from then on. I know they push you toward flatpaks, but the vast majority of apps I use don't have it (or I don't prefer using the Flatpak version). Can anyone give a more recent perspective? It's been about two years - I probably used Fedora Atomic 35/36.

bryanlarsen 3y ago
I use Bazzite. It includes nix and fleek, so you can easily install packages from the massive nixos ecosystem. I then add JetPack's devbox which is another nix porcelain and use it with direnv to install custom packages for each of my projects. And I have a few distrobox's (toolbox on generic Silverblue) to do things like build Debian packages.
- Santosh83 3y ago
  Bazzite's sibling Bluefin is specifically meant for developers (the bluefin-dx image) and standard daily driver. Bazzite is targeted more towards gaming and Steam handheld although you can use it as a desktop too. https://projectbluefin.io/ https://projectbluefin.io/
  - Daegalus 3y ago
    I tried Bluefin and it's still early days and such. Also Bluefin has gaming images, so it seems it's weirdly trying to compete with Bazzite. Also Bazzite has an issue open to make `-dx` images. It seems both are trying to do it all with a different main focus. Bazzite is Gaming but can do other stuff just as well. Bluefin is Dev but can do others. I personally find Bazzite more diverse and capable.

bsimpson 3y ago

I know that Silverblue and Kinoite are more established, but I would have liked to see a consistent rebrand. "Fedora GNOME Atomic" is a better name for the same reasons that "Fedora Sway Atomic" is.

Andrex 3y ago
It would be called "Fedora Workstation Atomic" unless they wanted to rename the Workstation branding too. Keeping Silverblue makes sense to me with that in mind. I feel like Fedora Kinoite should be renamed though. The one "halo" distro can use a distinct name but everything else should follow the new pattern IMO.
- piaste 3y ago
  Yeah, I've been running Kinoite since it came out and I agree. The name is still very obscure, I'd be happier to just tell people "I run Fedora KDE Atomic".
- curt15 3y ago
  Silverblue is itself a rebranding of "Fedora Atomic Workstation"

oaththrowaway 3y ago

I never tried Fedora before, but a few weeks ago Bluefin got mentioned here and I went down a hole reading about Universal Blue and ended up making my own spin. Love it. Immutable is incredible

tmountain 3y ago

I just got into Silverblue (also love Nix), and I really feel that it's the way Linux "should be". I say this as a Linux user since 1999. If you haven't checked it out, imagine that the base (read-only) operating system (drivers, etc) changes in a very controlled and atomic fashion while all your userland stuff is updated via Flatpak (or Distrobox, etc). The odds of breaking your system are virtually zero, and everything works out of the box. It's amazing.

vundercind 3y ago
This is similar to the experience (if not so similar on the implementation side) of running MacOS with Homebrew or Macports: the stuff you directly use stays up-to-date, but the base system is separate so it’s nigh-impossible to mess anything important up just by updating your user-facing packages. You also don’t have to choose between stable-but-old and unstable-and-new—the base OS (including gui!) is stable, the stuff you use can be new, because the two are barely coupled at all. It’s a lot closer to the right way to manage this stuff, for desktop systems, than traditional Linux package management approaches. That approach is painful to go back to, after getting used to this. I’ll have to give this a try next time I poke my head into Linux-land.
dusanh 3y ago
Does Silverblue have the same plaintext system configuration capabilities like NixOS?

Cu3PO42 3y ago

I knew what Silverblue was and was decently certain about Kinoite, but had heard about neither Onyx nor Sericea. I think the rebranding is a smart move here for both brand recognition and searchability. I might have gone a step further and renamed the Gnome and KDE versions as well. Beyond the naming change, I'm really excited about those projects. I strongly belive that atomicity is the way to go and believe that eventually many distributions will evolve in that direction. Right now I think the tradeoffs are already worth it, but there may be a ways to go before I'd recommend it as the default for new users. (Even if they might in particular profit from easy error recovery.) EDIT: I want to add that the easy error recoverability that atomicity provides isn't just important for errors upstream that break one of your upgrades, it also enables much more experimentation. I have learned a lot more Linux systems because I was able to fearlessly tinker with many integral parts that I would never have touched in a traditional system for fear of having to reinstall. After all, if I broke it, all I had to to was to reboot to unbreak it!

torstenvl 3y ago

I like the idea of atomic base systems; it's very BSD-like. I may have to give this a try.

walteweiss 3y ago
Is BSD this way? I never used it, but I haven’t read about it either.
- torstenvl 3y ago
  Yes, the base system is a cohesive whole, not a set of packages. You don't update the kernel separately from, say, the core user land, the way you'd update linux-kernel and binutils as separate packages on a linux distribution. BSD doesn't use the term "atomic" but as near as I can tell it's the same idea.

bsimpson 3y ago

If you're not familiar, the Atomic project is really interesting. Its focus is stability and reproducibility, trying to solve the fragility that can happen when the default way to use software in Linux is `sudo apt-get install`. There's a community offshoot called Universal Blue (after the original Atomic image Silverblue). It uses the standards set for containerization to make userland configuration reproducible as well. There's a manifest (Containerfile) that enumerates all the modifications, which means an upgrade is bump the version of the base image and replay all the modifications from the manifest. It's also meant to limit `sudo` usage, so you're not in the habit of giving root to random software you downloaded from the internet. Their most famous image is Bazzite, which will replicate the SteamOS experience on generic hardware. They also have Bluefin for software developers. I haven't used it myself, but I find the concept fascinating. I expect Jorge and Kyle from that project will find their way to these comments.

Daegalus 3y ago
I will say, I prefer Bazzite for dev too. In general Project Bluefin is newer, but seems to be trying to get into gaming too. Likewise, Bazzite is considering developer images also. So I might switch to those. But it's so easy to switch. I currently use Bazzite + Nix + HomeManager + Flatpaks and it has been fantastic. I only layer Tailscale and a few minor things that need be system level to operate right.
- FireInsight 3y ago
  Bluefin is actually older, it's the base that kickstarted the whole development of Universal Blue. They are pretty much as mature, too. Bazzite is more gaming oriented, Bluefin more general purpose. Bazzite is way more popular since gaming attracts people.
dsr_ 3y ago
> trying to solve the fragility that can happen when the default way to use software in Linux is `sudo apt-get install` What fragility is that? Is it something outlined in https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian ?

kaylynb 3y ago

I really like Silverblue and run it on a couple of secondary machines (like in my workshop), but it’s still rough for anything off the beaten path. The largest pain points for me: - Any kernel modules. I know Ublue has images but I wish Red Hat would just have an official solution that doesn’t require hacky RPMs and such. - Kernel cmdline args or any initramfs changes: can’t package in image and need to be applied manually. Maybe it’s possible to build a custom initramfs to distribute? - Secure boot and enrolling moks is very annoying. My current workstation just uses sbctl to sign a UKI against custom keys and everything “just works”. This is part of why kernel modules are a pain in Silverblue too. If you don’t care about kernel modules with secure boot it’s quite nice though. Practically zero maintenance.

candiddevmike 3y ago
After working with these types of systems, I'm convinced we need a new type of package manager that works with overlays and merges package databases somehow. That way you can update the underlying image (at your own peril, maybe) and have the overlay package manager see the new versions. Constantly rebuilding everything when the underlying changes is a waste.
- colordrops 3y ago
  Nix?
  - candiddevmike 3y ago
    AFAIK Nix wouldn't solve this as it has the same issue (/nix/var/nix/db). Here's a scenario to better illustrate: I'm using systemd nspawn with my host root as a lowerdir overlay. In this container I install some packages not present on the host. The overlay upperdir now includes the new packages and the new package database. I upgrade my host, and now the nspawn package database is wildly out of date because overlay doesn't track line-level file changes. OverlayFS is really handy but it causes a ton of churn from rebuilding everything.
jwells89 3y ago

onlytheonly 3y ago

[dead]

nycticorax 3y ago

So can anyone help me understand why RedHat/Fedora has a containerized solution for desktop apps (flatpak), but nothing like that for CLI apps? It seems... odd.

Comma2976 3y ago
I believe toolbx is supposed to fill that gap, if not normal containers
Daegalus 3y ago
Toolbx, Distrobix, Nix are supposed to fill that usecase.
dralley 3y ago
Because it was already considered a solved problem. You can use standard containers for that sort of thing, so why reinvent that wheel.

colordrops 3y ago

WTF is a "spin"

thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
A Fedora distro with a different desktop (or sometimes a specialized purpose): https://fedoraproject.org/spins/ https://fedoraproject.org/spins/

smm11 3y ago

Don't use immutable distros on machines you might need for bootable disc or bootable thumb-drive use in the future. Found that out the hard way.

Santosh83 3y ago
What's the catch?
lproven 3y ago
> need for bootable disc or bootable thumb-drive use What does this mean?

dabber21 3y ago

I'm using Silverblue for 2 years now it is very nice to consume things, but it gets tedious when you want to some development, so I really just use it to play Steam games (flatpak), watch videos and browse the internet. never had any issues so far for those use cases its definitely something I'd install for my parents

FireInsight 3y ago
I'm having a blast doing dev on Silverblue! I've got Nix and Devbox installed for reproducible per-project shell environments with just the right packages, which feels really reliable. I also have a distrobox with some general-purpose dev-related packages incase I just need to quickly compile something. Overall a better experience than installing all devtools systemwide IMO.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dabber21 3y ago
  yes, devbox is definitely something I will try!
piaste 3y ago
All my dev stuff, editors included, is in a Debian distrobox - since that's usually well supported by tooling, but you could also go with Ubuntu for even better support and/or Nix for more obscure packages. GUI applications work fine from a distrobox and it makes the integration very painless (eg. VSCodium extensions). You can export them with a built-in command and it will even create a regular desktop entry for them.

butz 3y ago

Why not have single generic "Atomic" version and provide desktop environment as selection during installation? Like Debian does. Or is DE so tightly coupled into images, that it cannot be replaced?

Santosh83 3y ago
Fedora immutable distros are image based, so yes, the base system is a pre-made unit, over which you can layer minor packages but not something as extensive as an alternative DE. Hence so many spins, as well as separate versions for stuff like Nvidia cards, Asus machines and so on.

discardedrefuse 3y ago

Questions for Silverblue / Atomic Users: I tried Silverblue a couple years ago and found myself rpm-ostree layering some basic tools like Fish shell and Mosh. Is layering still the preferred method for installing these types of tools or do you have "generic" container (made with toolbox/distrobox) that you jump into for generic shell work in like ssh'ing around and file management? Also, how do you handle things like custom services? For example, Nebula overlay network doesn't really have an installer. Its just a single binary. I manually put that in /usr/local/bin, put the configs in /etc/nebula, chmod those configs to hide them, update selinux, and create a service file for it. How would I do that in an immutable system?

jcastro 3y ago
`/usr/local` is writeable so no change there, that should work fine. I keep a container as my "day to day" linux and just have my terminal autolaunch into mine. You can use any distro's container for this so it's personal preference. I'm using Prompt, it's a new terminal designed to make the toolbox/distrobox flow much nicer: https://gitlab.gnome.org/chergert/prompt https://gitlab.gnome.org/chergert/prompt It's still relatively new so it isn't on flathub yet but it makes everything mostly seamless.
- discardedrefuse 3y ago
  Good to know. Thanks for the info! I'll be keeping on eye on Prompt.
- curt15 3y ago
  How do you deal with the lack of systemd in the container? Where do you put software that ship systemd unit files?
  - jcastro 3y ago
    I use containerized versions of things, ubuntu and chainguard images mostly. You can always create containers with init if that's how you want to do that though. Some distros publish images that come that way: https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox/blob/main/docs/useful_tips.md#using-init-system-inside-a-distrobox https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox/blob/main/docs/useful_...

latentcall 3y ago

I use Fedora KDE as my laptop distro and have been interested in Silverblue/immutable versions. However I am not a developer so I’m not sure if it would offer any real benefit to my use case. Mostly use my laptop for web browsing and file transfers to my NAS. I’ve seen people say that immutable is the future of Linux, can someone explain that if they can? Does that mean one day all versions of Fedora will be immutable? Is it a security benefit?

byproxy 3y ago
In my limited experience, I'd say the immutable spins are even better for non-developers. Getting developer tooling going in Silverblue was enough of a hassle for me to disregard it, for the time being.
- sohkamyung 3y ago
  I have a SDK that I need to git clone from a repository, and then run a script file from the SDK to fetch the actual tools for my build environment. Am I right in saying that kind of development environment would be hard to use and maintain in Silverblue?