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These kind of conversations are exhausting. I for one don’t know all the details, which I think there are many. I realize it is easy to make a blanket accusatio

These kind of conversations are exhausting. I for one don’t know all the details, which I think there are many. I realize it is easy to make a blanket accusation and harder to provide details. Last time I looked this up it was pretty murky. Specifically on your point I believe there was a couple things at play but maybe I am wrong. 1) did not have approval by the state department 2) blanket rule that they could be used but not on weaponry. They were using these with drones to bomb a Russian fleet. I don’t know what the right answer here is but it would be nice to explore the topic more than “Musk is bad”.

belter 3y ago
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- vixen99 3y ago
  Why is this comment noteworthy? He is a smart guy irrespective of whomsoever makes this observation.
  - belter 3y ago
    You would not find worth of self-reflection, if an indicted war criminal would be publicly praising you? "Elon Musk spoke with Vladimir Putin directly, Pentagon official says" - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/elon-musk-putin-colin-kahl-pentagon-ukraine-starlink-b2397109.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/elon-musk-pu... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the... "CC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova" - https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-is...
    - deleted 3y ago
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    - somenameforme 3y ago
      In the [excellent] interview with Putin, Putin also called many US Presidents quite smart. Are you now also quite dubious of them, because of literally the exact same sort of "praise"? Calling it praise is not even rational - it is an observation. One may call Musk many things, but denying he's both quite intelligent and willful would be absurd.
      - belter 3y ago
        But it did not say it only in the interview.It seems Putin the KGB man, can't stop praising Musk. For example back in Sep: "Russia’s Putin praises Elon Musk as an ‘outstanding person’ and ‘talented businessman’" - https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/12/russias-vladimir-putin-praises-elon-musk-as-an-outstanding-person.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/12/russias-vladimir-putin-prais...
      - actionfromafar 3y ago
        In what way is the interview excellent?
        somenameforme 3y ago
        It was not like an interview with a typical politician, which is perhaps not a surprise, but interesting nonetheless. He was happy to acknowledge when he didn't know things, gave numerous interesting insights in conversations he has had with other world leaders - while actively avoiding betraying their trust of confidence. He also displayed a rather encyclopedic knowledge of history which I found fascinating as a history buff myself. In fact most of the section about Ukraine was largely a lengthy history lesson, including a reasonable overview of how people like Bandera came to be national heroes in Ukraine. I suppose seeing a world leader who actually seems intelligent and "real" was just something novel. The political personality all Western politicians use now a days is something I find irritating. Giving focus tested answers, or no answers at all, while speaking endlessly nonetheless. Even on topics he clearly found irritating, he didn't try to spin things. E.g. - on the Wallstreet Journal guy, he simply focused on the fact that he broke Russian law, and wanted to trade him for a Russian citizen. Basically it felt much more like a diplomat speaking to another diplomat instead of a politician trying to give you the answers he thinks you want to hear, regardless of what he actually thinks.
    - itishappy 3y ago
      Not really. Praise is free and regardless how you feel about him, Elon is one of the world's most successful businessmen. He's done things worthy of praise. (He's also done things worthy of scorn.) Are the reasons for praise problematic? What are they, and why? Here's a few other quotes by Vlad that contain praise: > It's a historical phenomenon that in 250 years, a nation could move from a colony into the most prosperous nation of the world and the leader of the world. It is indeed an achievement, a tribute to the talent of the American nation, the American people and an optimal political and economic system. He's praising all of America! Worthy of self-reflection? > History proves that all dictatorships, all authoritarian forms of government are transient. Only democratic systems are not transient. Whatever the shortcomings, mankind has not devised anything superior. Democracy itself has been praised by a war criminal! What should we do with this knowledge?
      - belter 3y ago
        Evil doesn't hand out gold stars for attendance. When a war criminal beams a spotlight of praise onto someone, it's not because they're dazzled by their moral compass; it's more like they see a bit of themselves, or rather, something exploitable that aligns with their nefarious schemes. It’s the dark mirror of endorsement—'I like how you think; it reminds me of, well, me.' It's not about falling for a logical fallacy; it's about recognizing the dance floor where these accolades are given. Evil's endorsements don't come from a place of benign admiration but a strategic calculation of how such qualities or actions serve their agenda. To ignore the context and implications of such praise is not only ingenuous but dangerously naïve.
    - amarant 3y ago
      No. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. This is the argument from authority fallacy but in reverse. Just because a idiotic war criminal praises someone does not mean that person is bad. Neither is it an indication that person is good. You should not pay attention to idiots. If you always do the opposite of idiots, you're letting idiots control you, and what does that make you?
  - toss1 3y ago
    Because Putin's statements are not mere random utterances of 'fun facts'. How many times has Putin said 'Garry Kasparov is a smart guy'? (Kasparov is a former world chess champion, Russian Presidential Candidate, and now works on Renew Democracy Initiative, a pro-democracy NGO, which opposes spread of autocracy). Or, for that matter, the same abt Navalny or any of his other opponents ? Reductionist thinking is convenient, but far too often misleading.
- infecto 3y ago
  And? Not to be dismissive but this does not prove any point. I have no idea what kind of game anyone is playing so this kind of article does not have much meaning to me. What does have meaning to me is an US based company that is supplying weapons to foreign nations/groups needs approval by the US government.
- lupusreal 3y ago
  If Putin called Musk stupid, it would make Russia look bad. SpaceX is far more capable than Russia's rocket industry so for Russians to save any face, they must say Musk and SpaceX are very good at what they do. What else would they say, "We're being beaten by idiots"?
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> would be nice to explore the topic more than “Musk is bad” Isaacson’s Starlink claims are muddied. But Musk has tweeted Kremlin propaganda points, e.g. on its proximate nuclear red lines (which, for the record, we’ve since passed). I blame David Sacks for giving him bad advice. But whatever the reason, it’s fair to question whether this was intentional at some level.
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  Not to be overly defensive of musk, but musk is currently one of our most major diplomatic point of contact with Russia (SpaceX deal to send up cosmonauts to iss) so it's kind of in the US interest to ask musk to gas up putin a bit. Although I wouldn't find it hard to believe that musk is that clueless, I also have to consider that it might be a diplomatic task.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > musk is currently one of our most major diplomatic point of contact with Russia Genuinely curious where you’re getting this. For what it’s worth, no, Musk is not a diplomatic contact for anyone in the West with Russia, though there is rising concern he sees himself as such, which leads to him e.g. leaking Ukrainian firing plans to Moscow’s envoys. > it's kind of in the US interest to ask musk to gas up putin a bit Not particularly. Though I can see him being used without knowing it. I am a huge fan of SpaceX and Musk. But while Starlink is hugely relevant to the war, Musk per se is presently between irrelevant and mildly damaging to American interests.
    - throwawaymaths 3y ago
      > Genuinely curious where you’re getting this it's in the text. SpaceX is a provider for Roscosmos. Pretty public knowledge: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/spacex-crew-dragon-launch-russian-cosmonaut-nasa-crewmates-space-station-flight/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/spacex-crew-dragon-launch-russi... It would be crazy for the US state department to NOT use that as some sort of opportunity.
jszymborski 3y ago
> I don’t know what the right answer here is but it would be nice to explore the topic more than “Musk is bad”. I mean, Musk has been on the vanguard of the "Ukraine's resistance is futile" push. You can call speculation on this line specious, unthinking "Musk is bad" rhetoric, but at some point negative criticism of a person is relevant. It takes zero imagination to conceive of Musk turning a blind eye to Russia's use of Starlink, it would be consistent with the way he speaks on X/Twitter. It may seem like bashing, but honestly it's easy to run out of good things to say about some people.
- infecto 3y ago
  Actually it does take some imagination. As does thinking that somehow starlink does not have to answer to the state department. My point being that no matter what narrative we want to use for Musk, ultimately there is some accountability to the state department for tools used in war.

belter 3y ago

[flagged]

vixen99 3y ago
Why is this comment noteworthy? He is a smart guy irrespective of whomsoever makes this observation.
- belter 3y ago
  You would not find worth of self-reflection, if an indicted war criminal would be publicly praising you? "Elon Musk spoke with Vladimir Putin directly, Pentagon official says" - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/elon-musk-putin-colin-kahl-pentagon-ukraine-starlink-b2397109.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/elon-musk-pu... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the... "CC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova" - https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-is...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    In the [excellent] interview with Putin, Putin also called many US Presidents quite smart. Are you now also quite dubious of them, because of literally the exact same sort of "praise"? Calling it praise is not even rational - it is an observation. One may call Musk many things, but denying he's both quite intelligent and willful would be absurd.
    - belter 3y ago
      But it did not say it only in the interview.It seems Putin the KGB man, can't stop praising Musk. For example back in Sep: "Russia’s Putin praises Elon Musk as an ‘outstanding person’ and ‘talented businessman’" - https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/12/russias-vladimir-putin-praises-elon-musk-as-an-outstanding-person.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/12/russias-vladimir-putin-prais...
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      In what way is the interview excellent?
      - somenameforme 3y ago
        It was not like an interview with a typical politician, which is perhaps not a surprise, but interesting nonetheless. He was happy to acknowledge when he didn't know things, gave numerous interesting insights in conversations he has had with other world leaders - while actively avoiding betraying their trust of confidence. He also displayed a rather encyclopedic knowledge of history which I found fascinating as a history buff myself. In fact most of the section about Ukraine was largely a lengthy history lesson, including a reasonable overview of how people like Bandera came to be national heroes in Ukraine. I suppose seeing a world leader who actually seems intelligent and "real" was just something novel. The political personality all Western politicians use now a days is something I find irritating. Giving focus tested answers, or no answers at all, while speaking endlessly nonetheless. Even on topics he clearly found irritating, he didn't try to spin things. E.g. - on the Wallstreet Journal guy, he simply focused on the fact that he broke Russian law, and wanted to trade him for a Russian citizen. Basically it felt much more like a diplomat speaking to another diplomat instead of a politician trying to give you the answers he thinks you want to hear, regardless of what he actually thinks.
  - itishappy 3y ago
    Not really. Praise is free and regardless how you feel about him, Elon is one of the world's most successful businessmen. He's done things worthy of praise. (He's also done things worthy of scorn.) Are the reasons for praise problematic? What are they, and why? Here's a few other quotes by Vlad that contain praise: > It's a historical phenomenon that in 250 years, a nation could move from a colony into the most prosperous nation of the world and the leader of the world. It is indeed an achievement, a tribute to the talent of the American nation, the American people and an optimal political and economic system. He's praising all of America! Worthy of self-reflection? > History proves that all dictatorships, all authoritarian forms of government are transient. Only democratic systems are not transient. Whatever the shortcomings, mankind has not devised anything superior. Democracy itself has been praised by a war criminal! What should we do with this knowledge?
    - belter 3y ago
      Evil doesn't hand out gold stars for attendance. When a war criminal beams a spotlight of praise onto someone, it's not because they're dazzled by their moral compass; it's more like they see a bit of themselves, or rather, something exploitable that aligns with their nefarious schemes. It’s the dark mirror of endorsement—'I like how you think; it reminds me of, well, me.' It's not about falling for a logical fallacy; it's about recognizing the dance floor where these accolades are given. Evil's endorsements don't come from a place of benign admiration but a strategic calculation of how such qualities or actions serve their agenda. To ignore the context and implications of such praise is not only ingenuous but dangerously naïve.
  - amarant 3y ago
    No. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. This is the argument from authority fallacy but in reverse. Just because a idiotic war criminal praises someone does not mean that person is bad. Neither is it an indication that person is good. You should not pay attention to idiots. If you always do the opposite of idiots, you're letting idiots control you, and what does that make you?
- toss1 3y ago
  Because Putin's statements are not mere random utterances of 'fun facts'. How many times has Putin said 'Garry Kasparov is a smart guy'? (Kasparov is a former world chess champion, Russian Presidential Candidate, and now works on Renew Democracy Initiative, a pro-democracy NGO, which opposes spread of autocracy). Or, for that matter, the same abt Navalny or any of his other opponents ? Reductionist thinking is convenient, but far too often misleading.
infecto 3y ago
And? Not to be dismissive but this does not prove any point. I have no idea what kind of game anyone is playing so this kind of article does not have much meaning to me. What does have meaning to me is an US based company that is supplying weapons to foreign nations/groups needs approval by the US government.
lupusreal 3y ago
If Putin called Musk stupid, it would make Russia look bad. SpaceX is far more capable than Russia's rocket industry so for Russians to save any face, they must say Musk and SpaceX are very good at what they do. What else would they say, "We're being beaten by idiots"?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> would be nice to explore the topic more than “Musk is bad” Isaacson’s Starlink claims are muddied. But Musk has tweeted Kremlin propaganda points, e.g. on its proximate nuclear red lines (which, for the record, we’ve since passed). I blame David Sacks for giving him bad advice. But whatever the reason, it’s fair to question whether this was intentional at some level.

throwawaymaths 3y ago
Not to be overly defensive of musk, but musk is currently one of our most major diplomatic point of contact with Russia (SpaceX deal to send up cosmonauts to iss) so it's kind of in the US interest to ask musk to gas up putin a bit. Although I wouldn't find it hard to believe that musk is that clueless, I also have to consider that it might be a diplomatic task.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > musk is currently one of our most major diplomatic point of contact with Russia Genuinely curious where you’re getting this. For what it’s worth, no, Musk is not a diplomatic contact for anyone in the West with Russia, though there is rising concern he sees himself as such, which leads to him e.g. leaking Ukrainian firing plans to Moscow’s envoys. > it's kind of in the US interest to ask musk to gas up putin a bit Not particularly. Though I can see him being used without knowing it. I am a huge fan of SpaceX and Musk. But while Starlink is hugely relevant to the war, Musk per se is presently between irrelevant and mildly damaging to American interests.
  - throwawaymaths 3y ago
    > Genuinely curious where you’re getting this it's in the text. SpaceX is a provider for Roscosmos. Pretty public knowledge: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/spacex-crew-dragon-launch-russian-cosmonaut-nasa-crewmates-space-station-flight/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/spacex-crew-dragon-launch-russi... It would be crazy for the US state department to NOT use that as some sort of opportunity.

jszymborski 3y ago

> I don’t know what the right answer here is but it would be nice to explore the topic more than “Musk is bad”. I mean, Musk has been on the vanguard of the "Ukraine's resistance is futile" push. You can call speculation on this line specious, unthinking "Musk is bad" rhetoric, but at some point negative criticism of a person is relevant. It takes zero imagination to conceive of Musk turning a blind eye to Russia's use of Starlink, it would be consistent with the way he speaks on X/Twitter. It may seem like bashing, but honestly it's easy to run out of good things to say about some people.

infecto 3y ago
Actually it does take some imagination. As does thinking that somehow starlink does not have to answer to the state department. My point being that no matter what narrative we want to use for Musk, ultimately there is some accountability to the state department for tools used in war.